Transcript of public session: Ms C Howlett of the Association of Senior Women Officers

Tuesday, 30 March 2004
3.30 pm

Sir William Morris: Good afternoon, Ms Howlett.

Ms Howlett: Good afternoon, sir.

Sir William Morris: Thank you for coming, and thank you for accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry and to give evidence, and thank you also for letting us have your written submission.

Ms Howlett: Thank you for the opportunity.

Sir William Morris: We have found it extremely helpful. Can I say that we do appreciate that some of our witnesses coming to this process may find it a little bit daunting, so I thought it would be helpful if I set out very briefly the way that I propose to conduct the hearing.

But first, let me introduce myself and the other members of my panel. I am Bill Morris, the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, recently retired. On my left, we have Miss Anesta Weekes; Anesta is in fact a QC, a distinguished barrister. She serves as a recorder and she chairs employment tribunals, and she was in fact counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry.

On my right here is somebody who you might have known, Sir Anthony Burden, who has recently retired, so he tells me, after a long very long and distinguished career in the South Wales Constabulary. He makes a significant contribution, in terms of his experience, to our work.

Ms Howlett, as you know, we have been tasked by the Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into professional standards and employment matters in the Metropolitan Police Service.

As I have said on previous occasions, and I will say again, our focus is the MPS as an organisation, and not the individuals who make up the organisation. Our approach in conducting the Inquiry is inquisitorial, not adversarial in character or indeed nature.

We are extremely keen to enquire into the issues raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make the appropriate recommendations for further good practice, rather than concentrating on making criticisms of the MPS as an organisation or individuals within it.

To helps us in our task, we are very keen to hear from all our witnesses, not just about what is wrong with the Metropolitan Police Service, but what is right with it; most importantly, we are looking forward for every nugget of suggestion that can make things better.

Let me just say for the record that a transcript is being taken, so that we can have a proper record of the evidence that is given to us by all our witnesses, and this will be posted on our website later today.

At the end of these introductory comments from me, I will lead on the questions, followed by my colleagues Miss Weekes and Sir Anthony, and indeed any supplementary questions that I might find necessary.

At the conclusion of our questions, I will offer you the opportunity for a brief closing comment.

In your written submission which will be posted on the website, you have indicated to us some very interesting pointers. Just for the record, I will repeat: you have indicated the role and purpose of the association of senior women officers, and the involvement of senior women officers in policy development, and the gender forum of senior women officers' intranet sites, and of course, most importantly for us, you have identified what is listed as the challenge ahead.

We would like to ask you some questions on these and other matters, but before we raise these issues, however, for the benefit of the transcript, would you mind formally introducing yourself, please, to the Inquiry?

Ms Howlett: I am Carol Howlett, a Deputy Assistant Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police, and I am Chief of Staff to the Commissioner, Sir John Stevens.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much.

Questions by Sir William Morris

Sir William Morris: Can I start by saying I know you have read our terms of reference, and no doubt you have followed the progress of our Inquiry to a certain extent, in any event. With this in mind, and taking account of your association's very particular and indeed special concerns, I wonder if you would mind setting out your association's view about what is the most important contribution you believe that your members' experience can make to our Inquiry?

Ms Howlett: I think there are a number of areas, and a number were touched on in evidence that my previous colleague gave; one of which, importantly, is that of being visible role models. It has really hit me very hard over the last few years, as I have sort of risen up through the ranks, how important middle and senior ranking women are as role models to more junior colleagues coming up through the organisation.

Time and again it has been said to me, "Oh perhaps if you can do it", or if another colleague, for example, who has just taken over in Special Branch, a female colleague, or who has just taken over as head of the Flying Squad, "If they can do it, then perhaps I can too".

Hearing them speak and hearing the challenges that they have had to overcome, and how they have managed to balance work/life commitments, gives others the confidence to do the same. Because it is quite clear to me that one of the issues for women within the police service, one amongst many, but one is that generally speaking, there is a lack of confidence in women actually pushing themselves forward, either for promotion or for specialist posts.

A real issue is encouraging women to do that, because it is my experience also that if you can get a woman to the starting blocks, they actually tend to do very well indeed, but it is actually getting them there in the first place that is difficult. So role models, I think, are very important.

Secondly, I think the association has a real role in terms of what I might call gender-proofing policies and papers, and what is happening now, which I am very pleased is happening now, is that papers as a matter of course are now coming to me, and the authors are asking for comments from a woman's perspective.

What I am able to do, because the organisation is now over 60 strong – I am able to identify groups of female officers who have particular expertise in that area, to actually read through the paper and offer their comments, and those are then fed back, which I think is an important area.

I think it is also important that the organisation is very visible in terms of sitting on selection boards, recruitment boards, in terms of being very visible by way of appearing in the media.

Particularly, I think, and this is an important issue not just talking about women's issues, but talking about operational issues – so there is a whole range of areas, I think, where the association has been able to raise the profile of women's issues.

In February last year, for the very first time, we hosted the Senior Women Officers Conference in London. That was the biggest event ever of that kind, and it had policewomen from right across the country, it was a really exciting event, but the strapline for that was "Creative leadership, I can do that", and this again was all about encouraging women to have the confidence to put themselves forward.

Sir William Morris: I said earlier, and I perhaps ought to repeat again, that diversity is the watchword, it is the paradigm by which we hope to widen participation for underrepresented groups in the Met, but it is not just a throw away line, it needs to have an intellectual resonance for it to be meaningful within any institution.

How do you see diversity in the Met from that perspective?

Ms Howlett: I have heard, sir, you talk about diversity being a thread, a golden thread that should go through everything, and I think we have started to look at it in that way. I was trying to think of instances that perhaps I could draw on to support that.

If we now look at promotion processes, if we now look at selection processes, if we look at annual appraisals, diversity in the broadest sense features very strongly as a competency in all those areas. So I think officers and police staff are very aware that diversity is an important issue as far as the organisation is concerned, because it has such a high profile, in processes and systems that are important to them as individuals and important to the organisation.

I think also that diversity is being threaded more and more into training generally, certainly into recruit training, which I think is a key area, but generally into training courses, for sergeants, for inspectors, it is a key area there. And I know you have already heard evidence about community and race relations training, and how all staff have been put through that particular training.

All papers now that go to management board or go to the Metropolitan Police Authority have to state what the diversity and equal opportunities impact is of the policies or the proposals in those particular papers, again to ensure that that is very much to the fore when thinking of new policies.

There is a tremendous investment in independent advisory groups, both at a corporate level but also at a local level on the borough as well, to ensure that the diversity issues are considered, not only in the development of policy, but indeed in terms of critical incidents, or in terms of operational matters.

I think the deputy also, Sir Ian Blair, has a key role here. He has a responsibility for diversity within the organisation. He ensures, as a key member in management board, that it is focal in all the discussions that take place, at their SMT meetings three times a week, and their management board meetings monthly. He also now chairs the new national intelligence model, so again, he ensures that in that very operational way, diversity is very much to the fore of those discussions.

You know, even when we are thinking about budget setting, the GLA budget setting, for example, we are now required to show that we spend approximately 5 per cent of the budget on diversity issues within the Met. So I think when you look at some of the key processes and policies and systems that operate currently within the Met, diversity is threaded into them.

It may not be as coherent as it should be, and I think perhaps that is what we may need to look at.

Sir William Morris: It is a tool, is it not? Part of a process to certain specific outcomes that we would all want to share.

Ms Howlett: Yes.

Sir William Morris: But your experience, and from the vantage point at which you overlook the development, not just of women but other representative groups – I am going to venture to suggest that you might want to agree that we are not there yet.

Ms Howlett: No.

Sir William Morris: What would be the critical point when you think yes, we have not reached utopia, but we are well on the road?

Ms Howlett: I think at a stage when the organisation is no longer tolerant of, no longer accepts any sort of stereotypical behaviour or language, any sort of bullying or inappropriate language or behaviour, and that everybody in the organisation is of one mind that that is not acceptable within the Metropolitan Police Service. That is internally.

And externally, I think when all communities across London feel that we as the Metropolitan Police are working with them and for them to deliver the sort of society that we all want; at that time, I think we will have reached a successful conclusion.

Sir William Morris: We have heard evidence, and it sort of anecdotally suggests like almost – in some respects, not general, but in some respects, like a two-tier force, there is the leadership and middle ranking and whatever, but somewhere going towards the lower ranks, the golden thread has not yet found its way down there in terms of attitude, behaviour, expectation, respect, all the things that we bring to work to make the Metropolitan Police Service a better place.

How do you see all of us in diversity as a tool, penetrating from the top through to the middle down to that critical point where it really matters, because that represents as near as to the frontline as you are going to get, which is where the MPS will be judged, ultimately?

Ms Howlett: Absolutely, and I think there are two broad areas. I think one is around interpersonal skills, particularly of frontline staff, because that is clearly the important contact between the police and the people of London, and that is about continued investment, I think, in training; it is about continued investment in career and personal development.

But equally important at the same time, it is about leadership; and it is about leadership from the top, and I think you have already heard a lot of evidence of the really dynamic leadership that the Commissioner and management board give, but it is also about leadership by sergeants, inspectors and other ranks and grades.

I was disappointed to hear recently from a female colleague who had gone out from the Yard to a borough at a sergeant level; we were chatting, and she came back and said to me, "You know, I was really upset that there seemed to be an acceptance of sexist behaviour and language". She said that was compounded by the fact that male sergeants were not challenging it, and of course, by not challenging it, they were condoning it.

So there is something there for me very much about giving first line supervisors, who after all are the people who are going to set the tone and set the atmosphere on teams, giving them the confidence to challenge, in the sure knowledge that the organisation will support them around that. And that is a real cultural change issue, and it is about, you know, the experiences of officers and staff out there, and how we make those experiences better. It is something about support, confidence and believing that they will be supported, even if, as you were talking earlier, they may make a mistake.

Sir William Morris: Clearly we have seen a lot of evidence where a lot of people in the Met are working hard, driving to widen participation for underrepresented groups, women being one of those underrepresented groups.

Yesterday, when the director of human resources, Mr Hogan-Howe, gave evidence to this Inquiry, we explored with him one of the many propositions in his written submission; perhaps we can just bring up what he says. Paragraph 137 of his submission, BHH 1/50. He says there that there appear to be insufficient female officers and staff climbing the career ladder; well, we knew that. But he went on to say – he talks further about trying to find solutions to this, and he goes on to indicate and suggest perhaps direct entry for police officers at all levels of the service.

He then goes on to indicate that perhaps streaming could in fact be one of the tools as a method of trying to correct the imbalance, and widen participation.

What I would like to ask is: what is your association's view about streaming? Would it see it as helpful or divisive? Is it an advantage or not? We would like to hear from you on that point.

Ms Howlett: I think there would be benefits in exploring that more. I think it is all about being much more flexible. It is not only around streaming and multi-point entry, because I do support that, but it is also about being much more flexible in terms of working arrangements as well, encouraging much more flexiworking, and making sure that managers support much more flexible working practices.

I still think that managers feel that staff who want to want part-time, or who want to work flexihours, are a little bit of a nuisance actually, because it means it is another management challenge for them, and I think there is a real cultural issue there about being much more flexible around that.

I think there is also issues about how we support – and it is all members of staff, but it is primarily women, because it is primarily women who have the caring responsibilities for children and elderly relatives; there is something about the organisation doing more to support childcare arrangements, to support women who are on career breaks, to keep in contact with them, to look at how perhaps they could do a few hours a week while they are on career breaks or maternity breaks, because the vast majority of people who are on career breaks are in fact women.

Equally, when women are on maternity leave too, so for me, it is all around flexibility and not being so rigid as we have been in the past, but I actually think there is a lot to be said for the multi-point entry that Mr Hogan-Howe I know was advocating.

Sir William Morris: Multi-point entry; of course, one of the points that he identified is the question of opportunity for that, and you have to maintain morale.

Ms Howlett: Yes.

Sir William Morris: You cannot sort of just parachute in without opportunity for open and equal competition as part of the process.

Ms Howlett: Absolutely.

Sir William Morris: But for a uniform service which is steeped in its history, culture and tradition, it is not just about the technical skills that you bring, it is this recognition of peer solidarity. The concept of – what the constable means in reality, I need not put it no different than that.

How do you think we could have multi-point entry without losing the culture and the application of what the office of constable brings to the service, not just at constable level, but as you go – up, because you do not lose it, it just becomes a greater responsibility: that concept, the ethos and the culture of the service. How do you get that, and get the professional skills or whatever it is that you need to widen participation?

Ms Howlett: I mean, it is clearly a real challenge, but I think it is around identifying: what is it that we want a police officer to do in the future? What sort of animal do we want a police officer in the next 10, 15, 20 years to be? And identifying the sorts of behaviour, the sorts of experiences, the sorts of skills that we want those individuals to exhibit.

And targeting, being quite open about targeting, when we are recruiting, people with those sorts of experiences, with those sorts of skills, for particular roles within the police service, and I think in that way, you have the best of both worlds. You have people who are coming up through the grades and ranks who have the experience on the streets; you also have people who are bringing in new perspectives.

We are an organisation, I think, over the last few years, who have shown a great willingness to change. It is actually quite difficult to change when we have all come up through 20 or 30 years of police culture. To bring in new people with totally different experiences, who challenge in a constructive way, and who are valued for the particular skills and expertise they bring, I think would be of huge benefit.

Sir William Morris: Okay, last point from me: let us assume we have consensus, we have established consensus on multi-point entry, and we do what you said, of vibrancy and the evolutionary process of building, and bringing all that richness, and very much I am excited by it.

But Mr Hogan-Howe's proposition only relates to women; do you see the same formula, the same model, working for other representative groups, if we were able to reach consensus within the police community, and society generally, really, about multi-point entry?

Ms Howlett: Yes, I do. I think it would bring huge benefits. It is not just about bringing perhaps the traditional type of sort of female attitudes within the organisation, but it is about bringing the richness of the broad experiences of all groups of all communities within London within the police service, and that is what we have been struggling to do for so long, with very limited success, and this seems to me something that we should now be trying.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much. I now invite Miss Weekes to put her questions.

Questions by Miss Weekes

Miss Weekes: Thank you. Deputy Assistant Commissioner, yours is the first association of women we have met, so we are extremely pleased to hear from you.

Ms Howlett: Thank you.

Miss Weekes: I know you particularly represent senior women, but you make it clear in your submission that in fact you support all women within the Metropolitan Police, and you provide role models throughout the service, so because of the importance of the topic, I am going to perhaps go into a little bit more detail on the whole issue of gender.

Ms Howlett: Yes.

Miss Weekes: There are perhaps in total three organisations – if I can just run through them, the other two are similar, I know. There is yourself and there is also the Metropolitan branch of the British Association of Women in Policing; and there is the Association of Senior Women Officers, which is yourself; and the British Association of Women in Policing; is that right?

Ms Howlett: Yes.

Miss Weekes: Are there any others?

Ms Howlett: There is the ACPO Women's Forum.

Miss Weekes: Yes, of course. And, of course, women will be amongst the other staff associations –

Ms Howlett: Oh, absolutely.

Miss Weekes: – of which there are 13 or 14, depending on how you split them. We have heard from two today.

Can I ask this: of the four main ones, which would include ACPO, what is the difference between you? I suppose you are going to guess I am going to come on to ask: why can there not be one?

Ms Howlett: Yes. I mean, clearly the Association of Senior Women Officers is only a Metropolitan Police association. The ACPO women is a national police – the British Association of Women Police is a national police association. So ASWO is specifically focusing on the needs of female officers within the Met. I think that is the sort of main difference.

Having said that, many, many of the issues that we are all looking at are very, very similar.

Miss Weekes: They must be.

Ms Howlett: Very similar. Childcare arrangements, I have already mentioned; long hours culture; underrepresentation in senior ranks; underrepresentation in some of the specialist departments are all the similar sorts of issues – we do liaise quite a lot with each other, and there is a lot of overlap. So for example, I am a member of the ACPO Women's Forum, I am also a member of the British Association of Women Police, so there are a lot of linkages there, which I think is quite rich, in a sense.

Miss Weekes: Would you be more powerful, would you have a greater voice if fact you were one organisation, because there would be more immediacy of younger women having role models, sharing what you have clearly identified are similarities and overlaps, and there being a greater force behind your representations to be made to management and the Metropolitan Police Service generally?

Ms Howlett: I think there would be some benefits in that. There may also, however, be a case to be made for an organisation which continues to focus on what it is like to be a female officer in a huge Metropolitan Police force. Now although there are similarities clearly with female colleagues in other smaller forces, there are also some unique aspects of working in London and working in a huge organisation as a woman, and I think those perhaps may get lost if we join into one larger organisation. That possibly would be my concern.

Miss Weekes: Can I move to the gender agenda? What is it?

Ms Howlett: Okay, the gender agenda is almost a five point action plan which is looking at improving the position of women within the police service. Just so that I do not forget any of them, if I may refer –

Miss Weekes: Of course you can.

Ms Howlett: The five main objectives – so first of all, it is about the service demonstrating consistently that it values women officers and how we might get into that.

Secondly, it is achieving gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation balance across business groups, across roles, and also within ranks.

Thirdly, it is to have – for women to have a voice in influential policy fora, which I think is very important.

Fourthly, it is to develop an understanding of the competing demands on achieving this work/life balance that I have already referred to.

And lastly, it is about having working environments and equipment which is of the right quality and standards to enable women to do their jobs professionally.

So there are five broad areas, and there are action plans under each of those five broad areas. Now the gender agenda is a national agenda. The Metropolitan Police contribution towards that is something which is called EnGender, which is being led by Denise Milani. I think you already have a written submission from Denise; Denise heads up the Do It team, the organisational improvement team within the Met, and she has been driving very hard – she is also a member of ASWO as well. In fact, she is the only non-police officer who is a member of ASWO, because of her role within the organisation.

So she has been driving forward with support from ASWO around the EnGender agenda, to support that gender agenda. I hope that is not too confusing, all those genders and agendas there.

Miss Weekes: No, I followed it. As we have become accustomed, policies and agendas can sound very grand, but depending upon who is in charge of it and who drives it and who supports it, and how well it is received, there lies the end result. Are you confident that this new gender agenda is going to change things for women?

Ms Howlett: Had you asked me two or three years ago, I would have said I was not at all confident. Ask me now, I am a lot more confident, and I think the reason for that is that I get a sense of a sea change, in terms of what diversity means in the organisation, in the sense that diversity is now a very broad canvas, and it does not focus on one particular issue.

It is about ensuring that each individual is valued for the contribution that he or she can make to the organisation, and about ensuring that the organisation enables individuals to reach their full potential, regardless of their background, regardless of their colour, regardless of their gender.

Now I get a sense, certainly amongst the policy makers, that that focus is now very much wider and embraces gender, sexual orientation, disability, to a much greater extent than it did before. Certainly now I have the privilege of working very closely to the Commissioner, and the Deputy Commissioner, and I know that it is very, very high on their particular agendas.

The Deputy Commissioner has in fact asked me to set up a commission within the Metropolitan Police to look at the current situation of women, to see what the issues are for them, and to see how we might start addressing them in a more sort of coherent way. He has asked me to work with Assistant Commissioner Hogan-Howe and Denise Milani to look at that specific issue.

Now I think that is an indication of the fact that gender specifically is much higher on the agenda than it ever was before.

The very fact I think now that we are getting women through in much greater numbers, still nowhere near enough, but in much greater numbers, to the very most senior positions – five chief constables in the country who are women, more than we have ever had before. A woman in charge of Special Branch; a woman in charge of the Kidnap Squad.

It is that sort of role modeling which is so important in terms of raising the profile. I also think we have done a lot – and I would like to pay tribute to my colleagues in ASWO here, for raising the profile in the media, they have been on radio, on television; they have exposed their own personal circumstances in interviews with the media.

Now all that, I think, is really important in terms of raising this agenda. That is an awfully long-winded answer to question, which is: I am more confident now than I have been for a long time.

Miss Weekes: We are encouraged to hear that confidence, but can I pick you up on a word you have used, and I hope you do not mind me doing so. You used the word "privilege"; I am sure you will agree you are, through your own efforts, and congratulations for them, in a privileged position.

Ms Howlett: Yes.

Miss Weekes: What about the very young woman, in fact not too dissimilar from the one that spoke to you in those surprising terms; are you as confident that the lower ranks are getting the message that you so clearly hear from the man that you work with, who is driving forth this agenda?

Ms Howlett: I am confident that the messages are coming loud and clear from, for example, the Commissioner – and the reason I say that is you may be aware that he does a sort of rolling roadshow around the Met, which is called "Mission, vision and values", and he very much focuses on diversity issues, cultural change, leadership and all those sorts of issues. Of course, he is addressing audiences of a couple of hundred officers and staff.

Miss Weekes: We have heard from the Commissioner, and each member of this panel is undoubtedly clear and convinced about his commitment. But is a woman any different to what we hear from the outgoing chairman of the Sikh Association, just before you arrived, that his view is at the top, they have got the commitment, it is when you get down to the lower ranks, and management level; it is not filtering down.

Ms Howlett: Well, I think it is, but I think it is a very gradual process, and I think we have a long way to go. I think there has been a considerable improvement, and I think the opportunities for women, for example, are tremendous now, in terms of where they want to go.

But there are still a number of issues. There are things like the long hours culture, for example, which undoubtedly inhibits women specifically from applying for specialist posts or for promotion, because they do not feel they are able to commit to consistently long hours, day after day. Long hours – clearly in an operational situation sometimes, one has to pull out all the stops and work extremely hours, and that is totally accepted, but on a daily basis, it is the quality of work, rather than being seen there first thing in the morning and last thing in the afternoon, that is important.

It is about ensuring that women – the women see the processes to be fair, and may I give you an example of what I am talking about? There was an issue that came to my attention not very long ago, about six or eight months ago, around postings following the promotion process, and there were a couple of my colleagues at a middle ranking level, female colleagues, who had been successful and were jubilant about having got through the promotion process.

They then waited and they then waited and they then waited, and eventually, they came to me and said, "We do not understand why we are not getting posted and being promoted".

So I queried it with Assistant Commissioner Hogan-Howe, he came, he asked me to find out exactly what the issues were, he came to hear them for himself, to the ASWO group, and he asked us to put forward a number of proposals around how the postings process might be and might seem to be more open, more transparent and more fair.

We did that, and as a result of which, although that process, I do not think, is perfect yet, has vastly improved, and it is around making the process visible. So a particular woman will understand why she is not being promoted at a specific time. It might be because that particular post, her skills are not suitable for it, or it might be that she actually came lower down in the pecking order, in terms of her position within the promotion process.

So that was a really important issue for a lot of my colleagues, and it was an example, I think, about whether the organisation is willing to hear, willing to listen and willing to be more open. But there are still instances – and I think it was referred to by the colleague who was giving you evidence just before me, about perception of an old boys' network operating. It is that perception that we need to address by making sure the processes and the systems are fair, open and transparent; and that is one example of perhaps where we have been able to effect some positive change.

Miss Weekes: But is it not still an old boys' network, with a macho attitude?

Ms Howlett: I think it is less so, and I think it varies a little bit across the organisation. One of the parts of the organisation which is always seen to be very sort of macho culture, very much a closed shop, has been specialist operations.

Now what they have worked really hard over the last couple of years to do is to open it up, by ways of a careers advice booklet, a careers consultancy unit; ensuring that if a member of staff is interested in applying, it does not matter whether it is a woman or a man, they get a single person who they can talk issues through with, who will stay with them for the whole process. They are much more open about advertising what all the roles are, what competencies are needed for those roles, and what sort of career path they would expect to see in order to be successful.

So I do get a sense of the organisation opening up, and wanting very much to encourage more female officers specifically, with my ASWO hat on, into the traditionally perhaps male preserves. But you know, do not get me wrong, it is certainly not all roses. We still have a long way to go. But there is a recognition, I think, and a willingness to try and be a little bit more flexible and imaginative.

Miss Weekes: Black women are the most underrepresented group in the officer ranks. They are overrepresented in the staff ranks. Is that a good thing?

Ms Howlett: Well, clearly it is not a good thing. Again, it is going back to role models. If ethnic minority women do not see colleagues at senior ranks, there is going to be a very negative impression given in terms of whether they are able to succeed or not, so again, this role modeling is critically important.

But it is also about ensuring that the right people are getting into the right roles, and this is again why, and I know you have heard about this, the female and ethnic minority detective training programme is so important, because what that is doing is exposing ethnic minority officers and women to a year long opportunity to gain the experience they need to enable them to compete on a level playing field, and I think this is what it is all about.

Has the organisation established a level playing field for people, male, female, black, white, Asian, to compete, and I do not know yet whether we have, but I think we are getting there.

Miss Weekes: Because, of course, it is a recognised fact that black women have the gender issue and the race issue.

Ms Howlett: And they compound each other.

Miss Weekes: Are you aware of any particular initiative that, for example, the Black Police Association have for black women?

Ms Howlett: No, I am not. The only initiative –

Miss Weekes: Do you have one?

Ms Howlett: Not specifically for black women, no. For women generally, but not for black women particularly, and I have to say, it was an area within the Senior Female Officers Conference that I spoke about that we did not focus on nearly enough.

Miss Weekes: Right. Well, speaking of focusing, do you think that the race agenda has now swamped the gender agenda?

Ms Howlett: Again, I think – and it is probably going back to what I said earlier. If you had asked me that a couple of years ago, I would have said yes, I think it has, but I think there has been a gradual realisation over the last two years that we need to embrace diversity in the widest sense. So I do not think it is now – and I think there is a recognition that disability, sexual orientation and gender are all key issues for us too.

Miss Weekes: I just have two other points, and it is the relationship of the Association of Women Police Officers, all the groups of them, their relationship with the employment tribunal department; we have heard from them today.

One of the interesting points that came up is that there is no regular contact between women's groups and the employment tribunals to discuss and raise the issues which clearly come out of employment law tribunal cases. Do you agree with that?

Ms Howlett: Yes, I do agree with that, and I would welcome that as a development. I see Esme in the audience, and I have quite regular contact with Esme, but that tends to be a more informal type arrangement than a more structured way of feeding back the lessons to be learned, and I think I would very much welcome that.

Miss Weekes: Forgive me for pressing you a little: could it really be that to date, there has been no regular discussion with principal women's groups about why women go to employment tribunals? Because a lot of them do.

Ms Howlett: Yes, they do, and other than through gold groups, for example, so, you know, if there was a specific incident that may require some sort of management overview, and we would set up a gold group, then we would have – I would invariably, for example, invite Esme on to the group, but other than in those particular circumstances, I think that is probably a fair comment that you make.

Miss Weekes: It is quite regrettable, is it not?

Ms Howlett: I think it is something we need to look at as a matter of urgency, I do agree with you, because I think there is a lot to be learnt.

Miss Weekes: Just one final point: what successful aspect would you say women's groups have communicated to the Metropolitan Police as a whole, which has made a difference?

Ms Howlett: The postings policy was a specific issue that I think I mentioned. The training, I think, is another area; we have engaged in specific gender training, and we have tried to be fairly innovative, and we have used mytho drama, and a variety of other avenues for training women officers specifically in terms of increasing their confidence, and those sorts of issues.

ASWO also present at and contribute towards the training for first line supervisors, women first line supervisors also. In fact it was only last week that I went to one of the sessions, together in fact with my staff officer, who is also here, and we presented – so we do that fairly regularly.

But I actually think the most important thing we can do as an organisation of women is to be very visible, to raise our profile, and to keep on fighting for women's issues and supporting women coming through.

There is one area which we are just about to enter into, and that is a mentoring regime for female inspectors. We held a conference of female inspectors some considerable time ago now. One of the issues coming from them quite clearly was that they felt isolated. They had all the pressures that their male inspector colleagues had, but in addition to that, they were often the only female middle manager on a borough.

So what we are doing as ASWO members is pairing up, again it is a choice element here, but pairing up as ASWO members as mentors with individual female inspectors, and then the next step will be to encourage them to develop support networks for female sergeants and female constables.

I know at the moment a lot of boroughs, under the EnGender agenda, are doing exactly that: are looking at networking opportunities and focus groups within their local boroughs to better support their female officers and staff.

Miss Weekes: Thank you very much indeed.

Sir William Morris: Thank you, Ms Howlett. I will just invite Sir Anthony Burden to put some questions.

Questions by Sir Anthony Burden

Sir Anthony Burden: Just a few points, if I may. I see in your submission, Carol, that there is an intention to form a similar association for police staff. Can I just put up a MET-TUS reference, please? This is what the Met unions say about the macho culture that you were referring to earlier. 7.5; they could have been listening in to exactly what you said. So as well having a shared gender agenda, it would appear you have got exactly the same working agenda; could I ask, why not one organisation that in numbers terms would be much more powerful in making your –

Ms Howlett: We have talked on many occasions about this. There were two issues, first of all, it is the sheer logistics of holding meetings which are going to be huge meetings. We already have 68 members of ASWO, and if you more than doubled that, it would be quite difficult to manage.

And secondly, there was a feeling amongst many of my female colleagues that although there was a huge overlap, there were also specific issues for female officers, as opposed to female staff; for example, protective equipment for female officers, which would not be applicable to female staff.

On balance, we therefore felt what would be more effective would be to have a sister organisation on the police staff side, with one of our members being a member of their organisation and vice versa, and working in parallel, identifying where there were joint issues, and in those cases, working together on them, but also working on our distinct and unique issues too.

Sir Anthony Burden: So if there is a joint cause, you will go together collectively?

Ms Howlett: Absolutely, yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: Could I just look at that for a moment? I know you have referred to it, but it does prompt a comment from me that the macho culture, of course, is possibly something more than can be tackled just by asking people to be more flexible; it is actually positively blocking, and blocking because of this old boys' – well, it is a boys' club, and it can be a very mischievous boys' club, on occasions; not necessarily in the MPS, but it can be.

Sir William Morris: Do not point in this direction!

Sir Anthony Burden: If push comes to shove and there is no progress, and women still keep hitting this ceiling, are the MPS up for getting tough over this?

Ms Howlett: I think undoubtedly. I do not think you can get anybody tougher on things like this than the Commissioner, and the Commissioner is such a strong leader that when he is tough on things, other people get tough on things too.

I think the organisation is at a point that they are determined, not only around gender but around sexual orientation, around harassment, and around discrimination generally, that it is just not acceptable and it will not be acceptable. And I think you will see a very hard action if things do not change.

Sir Anthony Burden: And this issue we are getting about managers, middle managers, managers not managing difficulties, not managing issues, and this is a big issue; another point that has been made, even when they fail, they do not seem to get taken to task over it. That is something I hope that possibly will be a message delivered in a fairly strong way.

Ms Howlett: Absolutely.

Sir Anthony Burden: Just finally on this, I must say, when I read your submission and all the statistics we have been given, I was rather staggered by the lack of female representation in the Metropolitan Police, and we had to do a lot of delving, can I say, before we could find representative organisations – yours came readily to note, but we really did expect others to be there.

It just leaves this niggling question, please, if you could comment on: if you are a young female member of staff, an 18 year old admin assistant, that is getting sexually harassed in the workplace, who is very unfamiliar and very uncertain about the formal measures to deal with this, where does she go?

Ms Howlett: I think this is why it is so important to have women officers and women police staff at middle management level in numbers. It is going back to my comments about the female inspector feeling isolated, because there are not any other female inspectors, and often, there are none at senior management team. If there were, I think she would feel more confident and more able to go to that individual.

I also think there is a big role for the Federation there as well, and the Federation's support for an individual – or TUS support for an individual such as you are talking about.

Sir Anthony Burden: So an action plan that involves you all?

Ms Howlett: It has to be.

Sir Anthony Burden: It has to be one drive forward. Thank you very much.

Sir William Morris: Ms Howlett, can I first of all thank you for the candour with which you have responded to our questions? We appreciate your contribution very much indeed. But before I conclude, can I just remind you that at the stage of my introductory comments, I said that if you wished to make a short closing statement, then you would be provided with the opportunity to do so. If you do so wish, this is your moment.

Ms Howlett: Okay, thank you. I do not think I do, because I think you have given me such a wide opportunity to disclose to you everything I wanted to, both in terms of the challenges and in terms of the things that I think are going well, in terms of improving the situation for women. I really do thank you for that opportunity.

Sir William Morris: Thank you. Just for the record, can I just say that as with all our witnesses, it may be that once we have heard from others, we will want to ask you a few more questions, either in writing or ask you to come back at one of these hearings.

If we do find the need to request additional information in whatever form, then obviously, we will want to do it in a way which causes the least inconvenience to yourself and indeed to the organisation that you represent, but for the moment, on behalf of my colleagues, all that is left for me to say is to thank you very much for your contribution this afternoon and thanks for your contribution to the Inquiry in general.

Ms Howlett: Thank you very much, sir.

Sir William Morris: The Inquiry is adjourned for today, we resume at 10.30 tomorrow morning.

5.10 pm
(Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am the following day)

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	Archive note Important note: This is an archive of the website that was formerly at www.morrisinquiry.gov.uk. It is being hosted on the MPA website for archival purposes only and may contain out-of-date information. Page summary This resource is from the Transcripts section. This section contains a transcript of the public session with Ms C Howlett, Association of Senior Women Officers (ASWO), on 30 March 2004. Sections available here: Transcript of public session: Ms C Howlett of the Association of Senior Women Officers Questions by Sir William Morris Questions by Miss Weekes Questions by Sir Anthony Burden Alternative versions This transcript is also available with original line and page numbering. Content Transcript of public session: Ms C Howlett of the Association of Senior Women Officers Tuesday, 30 March 2004 3.30 pm Sir William Morris: Good afternoon, Ms Howlett. Ms Howlett: Good afternoon, sir. Sir William Morris: Thank you for coming, and thank you for accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry and to give evidence, and thank you also for letting us have your written submission. Ms Howlett: Thank you for the opportunity. Sir William Morris: We have found it extremely helpful. Can I say that we do appreciate that some of our witnesses coming to this process may find it a little bit daunting, so I thought it would be helpful if I set out very briefly the way that I propose to conduct the hearing. But first, let me introduce myself and the other members of my panel. I am Bill Morris, the General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, recently retired. On my left, we have Miss Anesta Weekes; Anesta is in fact a QC, a distinguished barrister. She serves as a recorder and she chairs employment tribunals, and she was in fact counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry. On my right here is somebody who you might have known, Sir Anthony Burden, who has recently retired, so he tells me, after a long very long and distinguished career in the South Wales Constabulary. He makes a significant contribution, in terms of his experience, to our work. Ms Howlett, as you know, we have been tasked by the Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into professional standards and employment matters in the Metropolitan Police Service. As I have said on previous occasions, and I will say again, our focus is the MPS as an organisation, and not the individuals who make up the organisation. Our approach in conducting the Inquiry is inquisitorial, not adversarial in character or indeed nature. We are extremely keen to enquire into the issues raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make the appropriate recommendations for further good practice, rather than concentrating on making criticisms of the MPS as an organisation or individuals within it. To helps us in our task, we are very keen to hear from all our witnesses, not just about what is wrong with the Metropolitan Police Service, but what is right with it; most importantly, we are looking forward for every nugget of suggestion that can make things better. Let me just say for the record that a transcript is being taken, so that we can have a proper record of the evidence that is given to us by all our witnesses, and this will be posted on our website later today. At the end of these introductory comments from me, I will lead on the questions, followed by my colleagues Miss Weekes and Sir Anthony, and indeed any supplementary questions that I might find necessary. At the conclusion of our questions, I will offer you the opportunity for a brief closing comment. In your written submission which will be posted on the website, you have indicated to us some very interesting pointers. Just for the record, I will repeat: you have indicated the role and purpose of the association of senior women officers, and the involvement of senior women officers in policy development, and the gender forum of senior women officers' intranet sites, and of course, most importantly for us, you have identified what is listed as the challenge ahead. We would like to ask you some questions on these and other matters, but before we raise these issues, however, for the benefit of the transcript, would you mind formally introducing yourself, please, to the Inquiry? Ms Howlett: I am Carol Howlett, a Deputy Assistant Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police, and I am Chief of Staff to the Commissioner, Sir John Stevens. Sir William Morris: Thank you very much. Questions by Sir William Morris Sir William Morris: Can I start by saying I know you have read our terms of reference, and no doubt you have followed the progress of our Inquiry to a certain extent, in any event. With this in mind, and taking account of your association's very particular and indeed special concerns, I wonder if you would mind setting out your association's view about what is the most important contribution you believe that your members' experience can make to our Inquiry? Ms Howlett: I think there are a number of areas, and a number were touched on in evidence that my previous colleague gave; one of which, importantly, is that of being visible role models. It has really hit me very hard over the last few years, as I have sort of risen up through the ranks, how important middle and senior ranking women are as role models to more junior colleagues coming up through the organisation. Time and again it has been said to me, "Oh perhaps if you can do it", or if another colleague, for example, who has just taken over in Special Branch, a female colleague, or who has just taken over as head of the Flying Squad, "If they can do it, then perhaps I can too". Hearing them speak and hearing the challenges that they have had to overcome, and how they have managed to balance work/life commitments, gives others the confidence to do the same. Because it is quite clear to me that one of the issues for women within the police service, one amongst many, but one is that generally speaking, there is a lack of confidence in women actually pushing themselves forward, either for promotion or for specialist posts. A real issue is encouraging women to do that, because it is my experience also that if you can get a woman to the starting blocks, they actually tend to do very well indeed, but it is actually getting them there in the first place that is difficult. So role models, I think, are very important. Secondly, I think the association has a real role in terms of what I might call gender-proofing policies and papers, and what is happening now, which I am very pleased is happening now, is that papers as a matter of course are now coming to me, and the authors are asking for comments from a woman's perspective. What I am able to do, because the organisation is now over 60 strong – I am able to identify groups of female officers who have particular expertise in that area, to actually read through the paper and offer their comments, and those are then fed back, which I think is an important area. I think it is also important that the organisation is very visible in terms of sitting on selection boards, recruitment boards, in terms of being very visible by way of appearing in the media. Particularly, I think, and this is an important issue not just talking about women's issues, but talking about operational issues – so there is a whole range of areas, I think, where the association has been able to raise the profile of women's issues. In February last year, for the very first time, we hosted the Senior Women Officers Conference in London. That was the biggest event ever of that kind, and it had policewomen from right across the country, it was a really exciting event, but the strapline for that was "Creative leadership, I can do that", and this again was all about encouraging women to have the confidence to put themselves forward. Sir William Morris: I said earlier, and I perhaps ought to repeat again, that diversity is the watchword, it is the paradigm by which we hope to widen participation for underrepresented groups in the Met, but it is not just a throw away line, it needs to have an intellectual resonance for it to be meaningful within any institution. How do you see diversity in the Met from that perspective? Ms Howlett: I have heard, sir, you talk about diversity being a thread, a golden thread that should go through everything, and I think we have started to look at it in that way. I was trying to think of instances that perhaps I could draw on to support that. If we now look at promotion processes, if we now look at selection processes, if we look at annual appraisals, diversity in the broadest sense features very strongly as a competency in all those areas. So I think officers and police staff are very aware that diversity is an important issue as far as the organisation is concerned, because it has such a high profile, in processes and systems that are important to them as individuals and important to the organisation. I think also that diversity is being threaded more and more into training generally, certainly into recruit training, which I think is a key area, but generally into training courses, for sergeants, for inspectors, it is a key area there. And I know you have already heard evidence about community and race relations training, and how all staff have been put through that particular training. All papers now that go to management board or go to the Metropolitan Police Authority have to state what the diversity and equal opportunities impact is of the policies or the proposals in those particular papers, again to ensure that that is very much to the fore when thinking of new policies. There is a tremendous investment in independent advisory groups, both at a corporate level but also at a local level on the borough as well, to ensure that the diversity issues are considered, not only in the development of policy, but indeed in terms of critical incidents, or in terms of operational matters. I think the deputy also, Sir Ian Blair, has a key role here. He has a responsibility for diversity within the organisation. He ensures, as a key member in management board, that it is focal in all the discussions that take place, at their SMT meetings three times a week, and their management board meetings monthly. He also now chairs the new national intelligence model, so again, he ensures that in that very operational way, diversity is very much to the fore of those discussions. You know, even when we are thinking about budget setting, the GLA budget setting, for example, we are now required to show that we spend approximately 5 per cent of the budget on diversity issues within the Met. So I think when you look at some of the key processes and policies and systems that operate currently within the Met, diversity is threaded into them. It may not be as coherent as it should be, and I think perhaps that is what we may need to look at. Sir William Morris: It is a tool, is it not? Part of a process to certain specific outcomes that we would all want to share. Ms Howlett: Yes. Sir William Morris: But your experience, and from the vantage point at which you overlook the development, not just of women but other representative groups – I am going to venture to suggest that you might want to agree that we are not there yet. Ms Howlett: No. Sir William Morris: What would be the critical point when you think yes, we have not reached utopia, but we are well on the road? Ms Howlett: I think at a stage when the organisation is no longer tolerant of, no longer accepts any sort of stereotypical behaviour or language, any sort of bullying or inappropriate language or behaviour, and that everybody in the organisation is of one mind that that is not acceptable within the Metropolitan Police Service. That is internally. And externally, I think when all communities across London feel that we as the Metropolitan Police are working with them and for them to deliver the sort of society that we all want; at that time, I think we will have reached a successful conclusion. Sir William Morris: We have heard evidence, and it sort of anecdotally suggests like almost – in some respects, not general, but in some respects, like a two-tier force, there is the leadership and middle ranking and whatever, but somewhere going towards the lower ranks, the golden thread has not yet found its way down there in terms of attitude, behaviour, expectation, respect, all the things that we bring to work to make the Metropolitan Police Service a better place. How do you see all of us in diversity as a tool, penetrating from the top through to the middle down to that critical point where it really matters, because that represents as near as to the frontline as you are going to get, which is where the MPS will be judged, ultimately? Ms Howlett: Absolutely, and I think there are two broad areas. I think one is around interpersonal skills, particularly of frontline staff, because that is clearly the important contact between the police and the people of London, and that is about continued investment, I think, in training; it is about continued investment in career and personal development. But equally important at the same time, it is about leadership; and it is about leadership from the top, and I think you have already heard a lot of evidence of the really dynamic leadership that the Commissioner and management board give, but it is also about leadership by sergeants, inspectors and other ranks and grades. I was disappointed to hear recently from a female colleague who had gone out from the Yard to a borough at a sergeant level; we were chatting, and she came back and said to me, "You know, I was really upset that there seemed to be an acceptance of sexist behaviour and language". She said that was compounded by the fact that male sergeants were not challenging it, and of course, by not challenging it, they were condoning it. So there is something there for me very much about giving first line supervisors, who after all are the people who are going to set the tone and set the atmosphere on teams, giving them the confidence to challenge, in the sure knowledge that the organisation will support them around that. And that is a real cultural change issue, and it is about, you know, the experiences of officers and staff out there, and how we make those experiences better. It is something about support, confidence and believing that they will be supported, even if, as you were talking earlier, they may make a mistake. Sir William Morris: Clearly we have seen a lot of evidence where a lot of people in the Met are working hard, driving to widen participation for underrepresented groups, women being one of those underrepresented groups. Yesterday, when the director of human resources, Mr Hogan-Howe, gave evidence to this Inquiry, we explored with him one of the many propositions in his written submission; perhaps we can just bring up what he says. Paragraph 137 of his submission, BHH 1/50. He says there that there appear to be insufficient female officers and staff climbing the career ladder; well, we knew that. But he went on to say – he talks further about trying to find solutions to this, and he goes on to indicate and suggest perhaps direct entry for police officers at all levels of the service. He then goes on to indicate that perhaps streaming could in fact be one of the tools as a method of trying to correct the imbalance, and widen participation. What I would like to ask is: what is your association's view about streaming? Would it see it as helpful or divisive? Is it an advantage or not? We would like to hear from you on that point. Ms Howlett: I think there would be benefits in exploring that more. I think it is all about being much more flexible. It is not only around streaming and multi-point entry, because I do support that, but it is also about being much more flexible in terms of working arrangements as well, encouraging much more flexiworking, and making sure that managers support much more flexible working practices. I still think that managers feel that staff who want to want part-time, or who want to work flexihours, are a little bit of a nuisance actually, because it means it is another management challenge for them, and I think there is a real cultural issue there about being much more flexible around that. I think there is also issues about how we support – and it is all members of staff, but it is primarily women, because it is primarily women who have the caring responsibilities for children and elderly relatives; there is something about the organisation doing more to support childcare arrangements, to support women who are on career breaks, to keep in contact with them, to look at how perhaps they could do a few hours a week while they are on career breaks or maternity breaks, because the vast majority of people who are on career breaks are in fact women. Equally, when women are on maternity leave too, so for me, it is all around flexibility and not being so rigid as we have been in the past, but I actually think there is a lot to be said for the multi-point entry that Mr Hogan-Howe I know was advocating. Sir William Morris: Multi-point entry; of course, one of the points that he identified is the question of opportunity for that, and you have to maintain morale. Ms Howlett: Yes. Sir William Morris: You cannot sort of just parachute in without opportunity for open and equal competition as part of the process. Ms Howlett: Absolutely. Sir William Morris: But for a uniform service which is steeped in its history, culture and tradition, it is not just about the technical skills that you bring, it is this recognition of peer solidarity. The concept of – what the constable means in reality, I need not put it no different than that. How do you think we could have multi-point entry without losing the culture and the application of what the office of constable brings to the service, not just at constable level, but as you go – up, because you do not lose it, it just becomes a greater responsibility: that concept, the ethos and the culture of the service. How do you get that, and get the professional skills or whatever it is that you need to widen participation? Ms Howlett: I mean, it is clearly a real challenge, but I think it is around identifying: what is it that we want a police officer to do in the future? What sort of animal do we want a police officer in the next 10, 15, 20 years to be? And identifying the sorts of behaviour, the sorts of experiences, the sorts of skills that we want those individuals to exhibit. And targeting, being quite open about targeting, when we are recruiting, people with those sorts of experiences, with those sorts of skills, for particular roles within the police service, and I think in that way, you have the best of both worlds. You have people who are coming up through the grades and ranks who have the experience on the streets; you also have people who are bringing in new perspectives. We are an organisation, I think, over the last few years, who have shown a great willingness to change. It is actually quite difficult to change when we have all come up through 20 or 30 years of police culture. To bring in new people with totally different experiences, who challenge in a constructive way, and who are valued for the particular skills and expertise they bring, I think would be of huge benefit. Sir William Morris: Okay, last point from me: let us assume we have consensus, we have established consensus on multi-point entry, and we do what you said, of vibrancy and the evolutionary process of building, and bringing all that richness, and very much I am excited by it. But Mr Hogan-Howe's proposition only relates to women; do you see the same formula, the same model, working for other representative groups, if we were able to reach consensus within the police community, and society generally, really, about multi-point entry? Ms Howlett: Yes, I do. I think it would bring huge benefits. It is not just about bringing perhaps the traditional type of sort of female attitudes within the organisation, but it is about bringing the richness of the broad experiences of all groups of all communities within London within the police service, and that is what we have been struggling to do for so long, with very limited success, and this seems to me something that we should now be trying. Sir William Morris: Thank you very much. I now invite Miss Weekes to put her questions. Questions by Miss Weekes Miss Weekes: Thank you. Deputy Assistant Commissioner, yours is the first association of women we have met, so we are extremely pleased to hear from you. Ms Howlett: Thank you. Miss Weekes: I know you particularly represent senior women, but you make it clear in your submission that in fact you support all women within the Metropolitan Police, and you provide role models throughout the service, so because of the importance of the topic, I am going to perhaps go into a little bit more detail on the whole issue of gender. Ms Howlett: Yes. Miss Weekes: There are perhaps in total three organisations – if I can just run through them, the other two are similar, I know. There is yourself and there is also the Metropolitan branch of the British Association of Women in Policing; and there is the Association of Senior Women Officers, which is yourself; and the British Association of Women in Policing; is that right? Ms Howlett: Yes. Miss Weekes: Are there any others? Ms Howlett: There is the ACPO Women's Forum. Miss Weekes: Yes, of course. And, of course, women will be amongst the other staff associations – Ms Howlett: Oh, absolutely. Miss Weekes: – of which there are 13 or 14, depending on how you split them. We have heard from two today. Can I ask this: of the four main ones, which would include ACPO, what is the difference between you? I suppose you are going to guess I am going to come on to ask: why can there not be one? Ms Howlett: Yes. I mean, clearly the Association of Senior Women Officers is only a Metropolitan Police association. The ACPO women is a national police – the British Association of Women Police is a national police association. So ASWO is specifically focusing on the needs of female officers within the Met. I think that is the sort of main difference. Having said that, many, many of the issues that we are all looking at are very, very similar. Miss Weekes: They must be. Ms Howlett: Very similar. Childcare arrangements, I have already mentioned; long hours culture; underrepresentation in senior ranks; underrepresentation in some of the specialist departments are all the similar sorts of issues – we do liaise quite a lot with each other, and there is a lot of overlap. So for example, I am a member of the ACPO Women's Forum, I am also a member of the British Association of Women Police, so there are a lot of linkages there, which I think is quite rich, in a sense. Miss Weekes: Would you be more powerful, would you have a greater voice if fact you were one organisation, because there would be more immediacy of younger women having role models, sharing what you have clearly identified are similarities and overlaps, and there being a greater force behind your representations to be made to management and the Metropolitan Police Service generally? Ms Howlett: I think there would be some benefits in that. There may also, however, be a case to be made for an organisation which continues to focus on what it is like to be a female officer in a huge Metropolitan Police force. Now although there are similarities clearly with female colleagues in other smaller forces, there are also some unique aspects of working in London and working in a huge organisation as a woman, and I think those perhaps may get lost if we join into one larger organisation. That possibly would be my concern. Miss Weekes: Can I move to the gender agenda? What is it? Ms Howlett: Okay, the gender agenda is almost a five point action plan which is looking at improving the position of women within the police service. Just so that I do not forget any of them, if I may refer – Miss Weekes: Of course you can. Ms Howlett: The five main objectives – so first of all, it is about the service demonstrating consistently that it values women officers and how we might get into that. Secondly, it is achieving gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation balance across business groups, across roles, and also within ranks. Thirdly, it is to have – for women to have a voice in influential policy fora, which I think is very important. Fourthly, it is to develop an understanding of the competing demands on achieving this work/life balance that I have already referred to. And lastly, it is about having working environments and equipment which is of the right quality and standards to enable women to do their jobs professionally. So there are five broad areas, and there are action plans under each of those five broad areas. Now the gender agenda is a national agenda. The Metropolitan Police contribution towards that is something which is called EnGender, which is being led by Denise Milani. I think you already have a written submission from Denise; Denise heads up the Do It team, the organisational improvement team within the Met, and she has been driving very hard – she is also a member of ASWO as well. In fact, she is the only non-police officer who is a member of ASWO, because of her role within the organisation. So she has been driving forward with support from ASWO around the EnGender agenda, to support that gender agenda. I hope that is not too confusing, all those genders and agendas there. Miss Weekes: No, I followed it. As we have become accustomed, policies and agendas can sound very grand, but depending upon who is in charge of it and who drives it and who supports it, and how well it is received, there lies the end result. Are you confident that this new gender agenda is going to change things for women? Ms Howlett: Had you asked me two or three years ago, I would have said I was not at all confident. Ask me now, I am a lot more confident, and I think the reason for that is that I get a sense of a sea change, in terms of what diversity means in the organisation, in the sense that diversity is now a very broad canvas, and it does not focus on one particular issue. It is about ensuring that each individual is valued for the contribution that he or she can make to the organisation, and about ensuring that the organisation enables individuals to reach their full potential, regardless of their background, regardless of their colour, regardless of their gender. Now I get a sense, certainly amongst the policy makers, that that focus is now very much wider and embraces gender, sexual orientation, disability, to a much greater extent than it did before. Certainly now I have the privilege of working very closely to the Commissioner, and the Deputy Commissioner, and I know that it is very, very high on their particular agendas. The Deputy Commissioner has in fact asked me to set up a commission within the Metropolitan Police to look at the current situation of women, to see what the issues are for them, and to see how we might start addressing them in a more sort of coherent way. He has asked me to work with Assistant Commissioner Hogan-Howe and Denise Milani to look at that specific issue. Now I think that is an indication of the fact that gender specifically is much higher on the agenda than it ever was before. The very fact I think now that we are getting women through in much greater numbers, still nowhere near enough, but in much greater numbers, to the very most senior positions – five chief constables in the country who are women, more than we have ever had before. A woman in charge of Special Branch; a woman in charge of the Kidnap Squad. It is that sort of role modeling which is so important in terms of raising the profile. I also think we have done a lot – and I would like to pay tribute to my colleagues in ASWO here, for raising the profile in the media, they have been on radio, on television; they have exposed their own personal circumstances in interviews with the media. Now all that, I think, is really important in terms of raising this agenda. That is an awfully long-winded answer to question, which is: I am more confident now than I have been for a long time. Miss Weekes: We are encouraged to hear that confidence, but can I pick you up on a word you have used, and I hope you do not mind me doing so. You used the word "privilege"; I am sure you will agree you are, through your own efforts, and congratulations for them, in a privileged position. Ms Howlett: Yes. Miss Weekes: What about the very young woman, in fact not too dissimilar from the one that spoke to you in those surprising terms; are you as confident that the lower ranks are getting the message that you so clearly hear from the man that you work with, who is driving forth this agenda? Ms Howlett: I am confident that the messages are coming loud and clear from, for example, the Commissioner – and the reason I say that is you may be aware that he does a sort of rolling roadshow around the Met, which is called "Mission, vision and values", and he very much focuses on diversity issues, cultural change, leadership and all those sorts of issues. Of course, he is addressing audiences of a couple of hundred officers and staff. Miss Weekes: We have heard from the Commissioner, and each member of this panel is undoubtedly clear and convinced about his commitment. But is a woman any different to what we hear from the outgoing chairman of the Sikh Association, just before you arrived, that his view is at the top, they have got the commitment, it is when you get down to the lower ranks, and management level; it is not filtering down. Ms Howlett: Well, I think it is, but I think it is a very gradual process, and I think we have a long way to go. I think there has been a considerable improvement, and I think the opportunities for women, for example, are tremendous now, in terms of where they want to go. But there are still a number of issues. There are things like the long hours culture, for example, which undoubtedly inhibits women specifically from applying for specialist posts or for promotion, because they do not feel they are able to commit to consistently long hours, day after day. Long hours – clearly in an operational situation sometimes, one has to pull out all the stops and work extremely hours, and that is totally accepted, but on a daily basis, it is the quality of work, rather than being seen there first thing in the morning and last thing in the afternoon, that is important. It is about ensuring that women – the women see the processes to be fair, and may I give you an example of what I am talking about? There was an issue that came to my attention not very long ago, about six or eight months ago, around postings following the promotion process, and there were a couple of my colleagues at a middle ranking level, female colleagues, who had been successful and were jubilant about having got through the promotion process. They then waited and they then waited and they then waited, and eventually, they came to me and said, "We do not understand why we are not getting posted and being promoted". So I queried it with Assistant Commissioner Hogan-Howe, he came, he asked me to find out exactly what the issues were, he came to hear them for himself, to the ASWO group, and he asked us to put forward a number of proposals around how the postings process might be and might seem to be more open, more transparent and more fair. We did that, and as a result of which, although that process, I do not think, is perfect yet, has vastly improved, and it is around making the process visible. So a particular woman will understand why she is not being promoted at a specific time. It might be because that particular post, her skills are not suitable for it, or it might be that she actually came lower down in the pecking order, in terms of her position within the promotion process. So that was a really important issue for a lot of my colleagues, and it was an example, I think, about whether the organisation is willing to hear, willing to listen and willing to be more open. But there are still instances – and I think it was referred to by the colleague who was giving you evidence just before me, about perception of an old boys' network operating. It is that perception that we need to address by making sure the processes and the systems are fair, open and transparent; and that is one example of perhaps where we have been able to effect some positive change. Miss Weekes: But is it not still an old boys' network, with a macho attitude? Ms Howlett: I think it is less so, and I think it varies a little bit across the organisation. One of the parts of the organisation which is always seen to be very sort of macho culture, very much a closed shop, has been specialist operations. Now what they have worked really hard over the last couple of years to do is to open it up, by ways of a careers advice booklet, a careers consultancy unit; ensuring that if a member of staff is interested in applying, it does not matter whether it is a woman or a man, they get a single person who they can talk issues through with, who will stay with them for the whole process. They are much more open about advertising what all the roles are, what competencies are needed for those roles, and what sort of career path they would expect to see in order to be successful. So I do get a sense of the organisation opening up, and wanting very much to encourage more female officers specifically, with my ASWO hat on, into the traditionally perhaps male preserves. But you know, do not get me wrong, it is certainly not all roses. We still have a long way to go. But there is a recognition, I think, and a willingness to try and be a little bit more flexible and imaginative. Miss Weekes: Black women are the most underrepresented group in the officer ranks. They are overrepresented in the staff ranks. Is that a good thing? Ms Howlett: Well, clearly it is not a good thing. Again, it is going back to role models. If ethnic minority women do not see colleagues at senior ranks, there is going to be a very negative impression given in terms of whether they are able to succeed or not, so again, this role modeling is critically important. But it is also about ensuring that the right people are getting into the right roles, and this is again why, and I know you have heard about this, the female and ethnic minority detective training programme is so important, because what that is doing is exposing ethnic minority officers and women to a year long opportunity to gain the experience they need to enable them to compete on a level playing field, and I think this is what it is all about. Has the organisation established a level playing field for people, male, female, black, white, Asian, to compete, and I do not know yet whether we have, but I think we are getting there. Miss Weekes: Because, of course, it is a recognised fact that black women have the gender issue and the race issue. Ms Howlett: And they compound each other. Miss Weekes: Are you aware of any particular initiative that, for example, the Black Police Association have for black women? Ms Howlett: No, I am not. The only initiative – Miss Weekes: Do you have one? Ms Howlett: Not specifically for black women, no. For women generally, but not for black women particularly, and I have to say, it was an area within the Senior Female Officers Conference that I spoke about that we did not focus on nearly enough. Miss Weekes: Right. Well, speaking of focusing, do you think that the race agenda has now swamped the gender agenda? Ms Howlett: Again, I think – and it is probably going back to what I said earlier. If you had asked me that a couple of years ago, I would have said yes, I think it has, but I think there has been a gradual realisation over the last two years that we need to embrace diversity in the widest sense. So I do not think it is now – and I think there is a recognition that disability, sexual orientation and gender are all key issues for us too. Miss Weekes: I just have two other points, and it is the relationship of the Association of Women Police Officers, all the groups of them, their relationship with the employment tribunal department; we have heard from them today. One of the interesting points that came up is that there is no regular contact between women's groups and the employment tribunals to discuss and raise the issues which clearly come out of employment law tribunal cases. Do you agree with that? Ms Howlett: Yes, I do agree with that, and I would welcome that as a development. I see Esme in the audience, and I have quite regular contact with Esme, but that tends to be a more informal type arrangement than a more structured way of feeding back the lessons to be learned, and I think I would very much welcome that. Miss Weekes: Forgive me for pressing you a little: could it really be that to date, there has been no regular discussion with principal women's groups about why women go to employment tribunals? Because a lot of them do. Ms Howlett: Yes, they do, and other than through gold groups, for example, so, you know, if there was a specific incident that may require some sort of management overview, and we would set up a gold group, then we would have – I would invariably, for example, invite Esme on to the group, but other than in those particular circumstances, I think that is probably a fair comment that you make. Miss Weekes: It is quite regrettable, is it not? Ms Howlett: I think it is something we need to look at as a matter of urgency, I do agree with you, because I think there is a lot to be learnt. Miss Weekes: Just one final point: what successful aspect would you say women's groups have communicated to the Metropolitan Police as a whole, which has made a difference? Ms Howlett: The postings policy was a specific issue that I think I mentioned. The training, I think, is another area; we have engaged in specific gender training, and we have tried to be fairly innovative, and we have used mytho drama, and a variety of other avenues for training women officers specifically in terms of increasing their confidence, and those sorts of issues. ASWO also present at and contribute towards the training for first line supervisors, women first line supervisors also. In fact it was only last week that I went to one of the sessions, together in fact with my staff officer, who is also here, and we presented – so we do that fairly regularly. But I actually think the most important thing we can do as an organisation of women is to be very visible, to raise our profile, and to keep on fighting for women's issues and supporting women coming through. There is one area which we are just about to enter into, and that is a mentoring regime for female inspectors. We held a conference of female inspectors some considerable time ago now. One of the issues coming from them quite clearly was that they felt isolated. They had all the pressures that their male inspector colleagues had, but in addition to that, they were often the only female middle manager on a borough. So what we are doing as ASWO members is pairing up, again it is a choice element here, but pairing up as ASWO members as mentors with individual female inspectors, and then the next step will be to encourage them to develop support networks for female sergeants and female constables. I know at the moment a lot of boroughs, under the EnGender agenda, are doing exactly that: are looking at networking opportunities and focus groups within their local boroughs to better support their female officers and staff. Miss Weekes: Thank you very much indeed. Sir William Morris: Thank you, Ms Howlett. I will just invite Sir Anthony Burden to put some questions. Questions by Sir Anthony Burden Sir Anthony Burden: Just a few points, if I may. I see in your submission, Carol, that there is an intention to form a similar association for police staff. Can I just put up a MET-TUS reference, please? This is what the Met unions say about the macho culture that you were referring to earlier. 7.5; they could have been listening in to exactly what you said. So as well having a shared gender agenda, it would appear you have got exactly the same working agenda; could I ask, why not one organisation that in numbers terms would be much more powerful in making your – Ms Howlett: We have talked on many occasions about this. There were two issues, first of all, it is the sheer logistics of holding meetings which are going to be huge meetings. We already have 68 members of ASWO, and if you more than doubled that, it would be quite difficult to manage. And secondly, there was a feeling amongst many of my female colleagues that although there was a huge overlap, there were also specific issues for female officers, as opposed to female staff; for example, protective equipment for female officers, which would not be applicable to female staff. On balance, we therefore felt what would be more effective would be to have a sister organisation on the police staff side, with one of our members being a member of their organisation and vice versa, and working in parallel, identifying where there were joint issues, and in those cases, working together on them, but also working on our distinct and unique issues too. Sir Anthony Burden: So if there is a joint cause, you will go together collectively? Ms Howlett: Absolutely, yes. Sir Anthony Burden: Could I just look at that for a moment? I know you have referred to it, but it does prompt a comment from me that the macho culture, of course, is possibly something more than can be tackled just by asking people to be more flexible; it is actually positively blocking, and blocking because of this old boys' – well, it is a boys' club, and it can be a very mischievous boys' club, on occasions; not necessarily in the MPS, but it can be. Sir William Morris: Do not point in this direction! Sir Anthony Burden: If push comes to shove and there is no progress, and women still keep hitting this ceiling, are the MPS up for getting tough over this? Ms Howlett: I think undoubtedly. I do not think you can get anybody tougher on things like this than the Commissioner, and the Commissioner is such a strong leader that when he is tough on things, other people get tough on things too. I think the organisation is at a point that they are determined, not only around gender but around sexual orientation, around harassment, and around discrimination generally, that it is just not acceptable and it will not be acceptable. And I think you will see a very hard action if things do not change. Sir Anthony Burden: And this issue we are getting about managers, middle managers, managers not managing difficulties, not managing issues, and this is a big issue; another point that has been made, even when they fail, they do not seem to get taken to task over it. That is something I hope that possibly will be a message delivered in a fairly strong way. Ms Howlett: Absolutely. Sir Anthony Burden: Just finally on this, I must say, when I read your submission and all the statistics we have been given, I was rather staggered by the lack of female representation in the Metropolitan Police, and we had to do a lot of delving, can I say, before we could find representative organisations – yours came readily to note, but we really did expect others to be there. It just leaves this niggling question, please, if you could comment on: if you are a young female member of staff, an 18 year old admin assistant, that is getting sexually harassed in the workplace, who is very unfamiliar and very uncertain about the formal measures to deal with this, where does she go? Ms Howlett: I think this is why it is so important to have women officers and women police staff at middle management level in numbers. It is going back to my comments about the female inspector feeling isolated, because there are not any other female inspectors, and often, there are none at senior management team. If there were, I think she would feel more confident and more able to go to that individual. I also think there is a big role for the Federation there as well, and the Federation's support for an individual – or TUS support for an individual such as you are talking about. Sir Anthony Burden: So an action plan that involves you all? Ms Howlett: It has to be. Sir Anthony Burden: It has to be one drive forward. Thank you very much. Sir William Morris: Ms Howlett, can I first of all thank you for the candour with which you have responded to our questions? We appreciate your contribution very much indeed. But before I conclude, can I just remind you that at the stage of my introductory comments, I said that if you wished to make a short closing statement, then you would be provided with the opportunity to do so. If you do so wish, this is your moment. Ms Howlett: Okay, thank you. I do not think I do, because I think you have given me such a wide opportunity to disclose to you everything I wanted to, both in terms of the challenges and in terms of the things that I think are going well, in terms of improving the situation for women. I really do thank you for that opportunity. Sir William Morris: Thank you. Just for the record, can I just say that as with all our witnesses, it may be that once we have heard from others, we will want to ask you a few more questions, either in writing or ask you to come back at one of these hearings. If we do find the need to request additional information in whatever form, then obviously, we will want to do it in a way which causes the least inconvenience to yourself and indeed to the organisation that you represent, but for the moment, on behalf of my colleagues, all that is left for me to say is to thank you very much for your contribution this afternoon and thanks for your contribution to the Inquiry in general. Ms Howlett: Thank you very much, sir. Sir William Morris: The Inquiry is adjourned for today, we resume at 10.30 tomorrow morning. 5.10 pm (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am the following day) Internal links On this website: Evidence: Ms C Howlett, ASWO Evidence provided by and documents referred to by Ms C Howlett, Association of Senior Women Officers, in her appearance at the Inquiry.
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Transcripts > ASWO (30 Mar 04)
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