Important note: This is an archive of the website that was formerly at www.morrisinquiry.gov.uk. It is being hosted on the MPA website for archival purposes only and may contain out-of-date information.

This resource is from the Transcripts section. This section contains a transcript of the public session with Mr K S Mann, Metropolitan Police Sikh Association on 30 March 2004.

Sections available here:

• Transcript of public session: Mr K S Mann of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association
  • Questions by Sir William Morris
  • Questions by Miss Weekes
  • Questions by Sir Anthony Burden

This transcript is also available with original line and page numbering.

Transcript of public session: Mr K S Mann of the Metropolitan Police Sikh Association

Tuesday, 30 March 2004
2.45 pm

Sir William Morris: Mr Singh, can I thank you first of all very much indeed for accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry, and for giving some evidence and letting us have your written submissions; we are truly grateful for that. Can I say that I do appreciate that for some of our witnesses, any process of this nature might seem somewhat daunting, so I thought it would be helpful if I set out briefly how we propose to conduct the hearing this afternoon.

But first, let me introduce myself and the other members of the panel. My name is Bill Morris, and I am the recently retired General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union. On my immediate right, I have Sir Anthony Burden, recently retired Chief Constable of South Wales Constabulary, after a very long and distinguished service in the police service; and on my left, I have Miss Anesta Weekes QC. She is an eminent barrister who sits as a recorder and part-time chairperson of employment tribunals. She was also counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry.

As you know, we have been tasked by the Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into professional standards and employment matters in the MPS. I say again that our focus is the MPS as an organisation, and not the individuals who make up the organisation. Our approach in conducting this inquiry is an inquisitorial one and not an adversarial one in any character or indeed nature.

We are keen to enquire into the issues raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make the appropriate recommendation for further good practice, rather than concentrating on making criticisms of the MPS or the individuals.

To help us in our task, we are keen to hear from all our witnesses not just what is wrong with the Met but equally what is right; most importantly, we are looking for any suggestions about how matters can be made better.

I think it is fair that I should say that a transcript is being taken of all the witnesses' evidence. This will be posted on our website later today, to ensure that we have an accurate and proper record of the proceedings.

At the end of these introductory remarks, I will lead in one or two questions to you, followed by my colleagues, Miss Weekes first, and followed by Sir Anthony, and any supplementary questions that I might find necessary. At the conclusion of our questions, I will offer you the opportunity for a brief closing statement if you so wish.

In your written submissions which will be posted on our website, you have given us some very clear and specific indications about your organisation. We would like to ask you questions and seek your views on those matters and others which are of interest to us.

Sir William Morris: For the benefit of the transcript, I wonder if you would, right at the start, formally introduce yourself to the Inquiry.

Mr Mann: My name is Kashmira Singh Mann. I am, like yourself, a retired chairperson of the Metropolitan Sikh Association. My three year tenure ended on Friday, but this is something I started before that, and I am here with the consent of the current chairman, Mr Raj Kohli.

I must say thank you very much inviting us, but I do not think we did this Inquiry justice, because we did not have the chance to devote as much time as we wanted to, because we are all operational police officers. It is something like Bob Pull said earlier on, it is something we do in our own time.

We do lots and lots of things in our own time, and one of the main things we do is look after the welfare of our members. Something I just remember last night, just as I sat down to dinner, I had a phone call from a member of ours who needed our assistance, and as soon as the phone call came, my wife picked up the dinner and put it in the microwave, knowing I would not be eating it for a couple of hours!

As I said, I spent about two hours last night looking after him, and as a result, he is going back to work on Thursday. He did not want to. He did not want to go back at all, because he feared for his safety, sanity, whatever; but he is going back to work now, on Thursday.

So we prefer to devote our time for that, and as worthy as these reports are, we found our time was very limited.

We did not exactly come with any recommendations for your Inquiry, but we thought it was best if we gave our experiences, our observations to you, and that is what we did in there. I chose just one case, because repetition is pointless, but there could have been half a dozen cases.

If you like, I would like to start off with how we were formed, and then go on to what we do, if that is acceptable.

Questions by Sir William Morris

Sir William Morris: Can I just say that by way of introduction, and thank you for the introduction, and welcome to retirement, as they say, I know that you have read our terms of reference, and no doubt you and your colleagues will have followed the progress of our Inquiry.

With this in mind, and taking account of your association's particular concerns, and you have indicated that it is indicative rather than definitive in itself. I wonder whether you would mind setting out what your association thinks is the most important thing that our Inquiry needs to learn by way of lessons from the experience of your members.

Mr Mann: First of all, I want to start off by saying two simple lines, in that I am proud to be a Metropolitan Police officer, as well as I am proud to be a Sikh, and the two are compatible.

Despite all our criticism, we must remember that, and it is something which Bob Pull said, we want to make the police service even better.

Our experiences are that a lot of – I will confine myself to Sikh officers, because that is where the majority of our workload is; they have been disproportionately picked upon, discriminated against, and basically victimised by a small – how small it is, I do not know, but a small group of white officers; and that has got to stop.

I am not talking about processes. As I say, you can have the most perfect discipline process, but if it is actually administered by racist officers, by bullies, it will not work.

Sir William Morris: You have echoed a sort of quality of evidence which we have received elsewhere. One of the intriguing points in my mind, and I will put it as a question, where you talk about being bullied and discriminated against and undervalued, at what level does this expression of misbehaviour take place? What level?

Mr Mann: We are talking about grass roots; we are talking about PCs, sergeants, inspectors and chief inspectors. Above that, a lot of our members do not have contact with officers above that, and also on a personal level, I have had a lot of contact with people above commander levels, and they seem to be on a different level; very, very little discrimination. They seem to be more enlightened than the grass roots.

The message of diversity, all the training and everything else, has not fed down to grass roots; even down to inspector level, inspector and sergeant levels especially. That is where people have power, that is where people feel they can abuse other people and discriminate against them. If you want, I can give you loads of examples, you know.

Sir William Morris: When these acts of unacceptable treatment takes place, and it is reported, I am assuming it is reported, what happens? Take us through the process of what happens.

Mr Mann: Well, it is like lots of offences, people put up with quite a large number of incidents before they actually do anything. It is the drip drip drip effect. There will come a point where they say, "Enough is enough", and then they will come forward and tell us what is happening.

Then hopefully we will take it forward, we will confront the line managers, but again, lots of other mechanisms come into play. They are, for example, sent to Coventry, radio messages are ignored. I have had one officer who was actually a witness, rather than the complainant, who would never ever again come forward as a witness or a complainant, because on two occasions, he put up urgent assistances and he was ignored. It was actually a neighbouring police station, officers from that neighbouring station came to his assistance. He was beaten up, but how do you prove that somebody did not hear a radio call? Very difficult.

Once they come forward, as has been said before, people enter into a bunker mentality, and people did not hear anything, did not see anything; again, going back to the incident where this officer was a witness, the victim was a black officer who was racially abused. This Asian officer, this Sikh officer, heard it and quite bravely came forward to give evidence, but there was about six to eight other white officers; not one of them heard any of this racial abuse. Why? Do they have hearing defects?

So they have isolated any witnesses – or complainants are isolated from the rest of the team, and this feeling carries on, when people apply for – making applications for promotion or for transfers, and people are turned down. There may be a very good reason why they are turned down, but the feeling ensues that it was because they were whistle blowers, they were complainants, they were the witnesses who stood against the majority officers.

People are very, very reluctant to complain. I know there is a perception amongst white officers that people complain about racism at the drop of a hat; that is the last thing anybody wants to do. People are very, very reluctant, because they are effectively putting their careers on freeze for three to five years. The length of time it takes to investigate a complaint about what somebody has said, maybe two or three sentences, can – on the occasion I am thinking of, it took 20 months. In that time, the officer was almost suffering from depression; was inefficient, ineffective, and as a result, the MPS suffered.

Sir William Morris: There is a sort of acceptance within the MPS that diversity is the watchword. Can you give us some examples how your members have benefitted from the MPS's policy on diversity?

Mr Mann: This example may seem quite trivial to people who do not understand it, but in my first month as chair, we approached the Commissioner, Sir John, and at a meeting, we told him about a problem which we had actually sent a report on ten months before.

As far as I was aware, that report was bouncing from one department to another, and that problem was solved in a five minute conversation with the Commissioner. As I said, it may seem trivial; it was to do with wearing of badges and bands, chequered bands on turbans. It was enforced. Some officers did wear them and some did not. There are practical and religious issues on this.

Depending on who the line manager was, you could be disciplined for not wearing it, and that was unacceptable. As I said, I surveyed all the Sikh officers and I did a presentation – sorry, I did a report to the MPS: got nowhere. In a five minute conversation with Sir John, he said – actually, I remember telling him about it, and for about a whole minute he went quiet, and after a minute, he said, "You do not have to wear them". Just like that. He made a decision.

His reason was actually slightly different from ours, but it was something which had an enormous positive effect across the community. And actually still, three years later, it is still drawing favourable comments in Canada and America amongst the Sikh community, because they are having problems on these issues. So that was a very, very positive thing he did.

Sir William Morris: Can you let us have your personal views or your organisation's views on the new Fairness at Work policy?

Mr Mann: Yes, it is bedding down. It is not as effective as the previous grievance procedures, and there seems to be a very woolly process. I do not think a lot of people understand it, and also the number of Fairness at Work co-ordinators is very limited, and the choice is limited. If you have a perception that that person, the Fairness at Work co-ordinator, is actually allied with the management or a particular part of the station, that is a bit hard for you to go to another Fairness at Work co-ordinator.

One of our welfare cases, he actually did not want that co-ordinator, but that is the one he was given. He had to fight to get another Fairness at Work co-ordinator. It should not be that way. It is early stages, so we are sort of keeping our mind open on this.

Sir William Morris: You want free choice?

Mr Mann: Yes.

Sir William Morris: Just a final question; I said earlier that we are interested about – not just about what is wrong, but equally, what is right; also, what needs to be done to make things better. What advice and guidance can you offer us that would make a difference to improving things within the Metropolitan Police Service?

Mr Mann: One of, in fact, the first long-term objectives which we set ourselves was to improve recruitment of minority group officers into the MPS. At the moment, I think we have about 1,600 or 1,700 minority officers out of 30,000-odd.

I just wonder how many of these problems we face would disappear if, say, 10,000 of those 30,000 officers were from minority groups, from the communities they serve. I suspect a lot of the problems would disappear, and certainly a lot of the problems would reduce in size, because there would be that much more understanding of the communities they are trying to serve, and that, as I say, is one of our long-term objectives within the MPSA.

The other thing is, from the Commissioner down to about commander level, I do sense that from the majority of the officers I have met, there is a sense of learning, a sense of listening. But below that, especially from superintendent level below, there is not that listening. They do not want to learn. I think Bob Pull gave the example – I am sorry, I think Mr Cameron gave the example about diversity training being one of the hardest jobs he has ever done.

I remember on my CRR training in the first half an hour, I could not bite my tongue, I could not just stand by and let some things go unchallenged, and because I challenged them, the atmosphere changed. There was sort of polarisation of the people who wanted to learn, and the people who knew it all, had seen it all, had done it all, who did not want to be there, and you could see that. It is not working. Training is good, but it is not the answer; it is not the be all and end all. You need people to set examples.

It was said earlier role models; yes, role models. Before about 1999, the perception was always that you should say and do anything you want, and nothing will happen, nothing will change. Yes, mistakes are still being made, but the perception amongst our association is at least they are trying to learn, the majority are. They are trying to listen, but only at the top level; not middle level, or lower level.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much. I would invite Miss Weekes to ask some questions of you.

Questions by Miss Weekes

Miss Weekes: Thank you. Can I go back to recruitment? Because you have mentioned that as being one of the long-term ambitions of your organisation. What steps so far have your organisation taken which you would say have made a difference?

Mr Mann: Two years ago, we started – well, nearly three years ago, we started taking part in recruitment drives on an individual basis, ie by ourselves, we would visit the temples, the gurdwaras and talk to youngsters and try and encourage people to join the police service. As I said, I am proud to be a police officer, and I want more of us to be here.

On the other side, we had the Positive Action Team. They held their own recruitment drives, and we had our own recruitment drives, and we did not used to meet each other. I noticed that when we set up a stand, the youngsters or whoever would come along and they would spend 20 minutes, half an hour, 45 minutes with us. They would ask the questions they could not ask anybody else.

When they went to the Positive Action Team fair or stand, they would go along and politely pick up the leaflets, maybe ask one or two questions, and their stays used to last about two to three minutes. But with us, it used to last half an hour, 45 minutes, even longer. As I said, we could actually give them first hand experiences; good, bad, warts and all, but first hand experiences of our time in the police service, and they valued that.

I think it was late in 2002 that we did start working together with the Positive Action Team, but unfortunately, that has fallen by the wayside, which is because of the freeze at the moment. That is something I think we can work on in the future: the Positive Action Team and the staff associations.

I know the problems a Sikh officer will face in the police service. A white officer will never know what problems they face. I use the analogy that no matter how hard I try, I will never know what it feels like to be a pregnant woman; only my wife can do that. No matter how sympathetic or empathetic I am, I will never know, or at least another woman can tell you that. Likewise, a Sikh officer can tell you the problems he or she is going to face, and a Christian officer, a Jewish, a Muslim, everybody else like that.

Miss Weekes: Has that effort, do you think, improved recruitment?

Mr Mann: Yes, it has. In the last year or so, the last four years, we have almost doubled our quota of Sikh officers. But the freeze has come in now, and there has been a halt. The problem with the police service or police career is it is something you come to at a crossroads in your life.

It is not something you say, well, okay, next week I will think about being a police officer. People have their lives, and if they are thinking of changing their career, they come to the police service and they want to apply, but if they are told they have to wait a year before they can even apply, let alone actually fill the application form in, they are going to go elsewhere, they are going to pursue their career elsewhere and carry on with their lives.

They may never come back to the police service, in which case, that is a loss. That does not have such a bad effect on majority officers, on the white officers, because it is such a large pool. But for minority officers, it does have an adverse effect, and that is something we would like to address.

We have actually addressed it with the Commissioner, we have asked him to unfreeze the recruitment amongst minority officers, and I hope he does that.

Miss Weekes: Do you know what the reason is for the freeze?

Mr Mann: Yes, which is obviously – the MPS has been a victim of its own success, the number of applicants across the board is far greater than the number of training spaces at the moment, and there is a blockage, and obviously, again, the same thing, about somebody who has even been successful, they are not going to wait 12 months or 18 months to be told, "Yes, you have passed everything but you cannot come to Hendon for another 12 months", I accept that, but the effect on minority groups is greater, is magnified.

Miss Weekes: Can you think of a practical method that will allow you to share your obvious experience and understanding of a Sikh person who would wish to become a police officer with the majority of the white officers in the Met on recruitment?

Mr Mann: Sorry, I did not understand –

Miss Weekes: Perhaps I will put it again. You talked about your recruitment drive and the Positive Action Team, and I think you suggested that at one point, you tried to bring it together, but it did not quite work.

Mr Mann: We did; it was obvious to everyone, the advantages of it. In the middle of 2002, we did come together. I remember one of the first events which we held was at Wembley, and we almost had a sort of subterfuge where all the staff associations were at the front, and members of the public were coming round to talk to us, and once we got them trapped, as you say, we would pass them on to the Positive Action Team who were lurking behind us with the recruitment booths. So we did come together, and it was a positive action.

Miss Weekes: How can you continue that? That was obviously a success, which was really initiated by you and your organisation.

Mr Mann: Well, I would not like to claim the sole credit. As I say, it was such an obvious way of proceeding that I think quite a few other people had the same idea, but as I said, now there is no need to recruit people.

Miss Weekes: The recruitment drive effectively really has – the freeze is –

Mr Mann: Since September last year, there has been basically no recruitment.

Miss Weekes: Can I go back to role models? I understand your comments that role models have their limitations, but I want to ask it in a different context. We are now familiar with the hierarchy within the Met, and the few visible ethnic minority officers that are at the top. Is it easy for a senior visible ethnic minority officer to still play a role?

Mr Mann: Yes, yes, it is. I am always positive, but again, there is lots and lots of little things which come into play, for example if anybody, any member of that particular officer's group is promoted on that group, then the perception is it is because it is the same race or same faith. That will take a long time to disappear.

The perception amongst minority group officers is it is very hard for us to get into specialist departments and promotions because of our lack of contacts at the top, so if one or two people do get to the top, that is to be welcomed. And I hope they are in a position to encourage the rest of us to pursue – because the perception always had been that it is not even worth applying to that department, because you are never going to break in. So the application does not even get filled in, let alone an interview or whatever, because of your perception.

So you see somebody in that department, and hopefully, other people will actually apply.

Miss Weekes: You have mentioned something I think is important, and it is the ability of a visible ethnic minority person to move up into specialism. You mentioned contacts; do you think that is how people get to specialist departments, that you need contacts?

Mr Mann: It is a fact of life.

Miss Weekes: It is?

Mr Mann: It is, because one of the roles which we try and fulfil is that when a white member of the public wants to join the police service, the reality is that he or she will have a friend, a neighbour, a member of their own family who is already a police officer, and they will go and ask them what sort of preparations they need to do to get into the police service, and they will get guidance. So the chance of their success rate of getting into the police service is greater than the minority officers, minority public. They do not have that friend within, and as I said, that is what we try and fulfil, we fulfil that role.

We make ourselves known to members of the community, and say, "If you want to come and join the police service, come and talk to us, we will help you join the police service, we will guide you. At the end of the day, it is your effort, it is your hard work that will get you in. But we will tell you what sort of things you need to do, what sort of preparations you need to do".

In the same way, if you have somebody in some specialist departments, you can be guided as to what sort of areas you need to train for, what sort of things you need to do to get there, but if there is nobody there, it is hard.

I remember – this is something which the police service actually recognised, and about two and a half years ago, they brought out a booklet where there was a contact within each specialist department, for example somebody like me, wanting to join SO7 or SO9, whatever the department was, there was a contact number and you could phone that number and try and get some guidance.

But within about two months, that list was obsolete and nobody bothered updating it. It was a good idea, but it just fell by the wayside.

Miss Weekes: Does mentoring work? I have heard about mentoring.

Mr Mann: Lots of things work if they are enacted properly. For example, one of our welfare cases which we had, it was brought out that this officer was supposed to have a mentor, and he was actually assigned a mentor. The problem is nobody told the mentor that he was supposed to look after this officer, so the left hand and the right hand never met. So lots of ideas which could work. As I said, for example, the contact in the specialist department, if it was updated regularly, it could work.

Miss Weekes: What recommendations or representations have your organisation made about getting into specialist departments?

Mr Mann: We try and talk to ACHR, Mr Hogan-Howe, and tell him about these problems, because at the end of the day, it is his department that will effect transfers and promotions and decide those movements.

We have had very little success with other specialist departments, and to be honest, there are specialist departments looking for minority officers and looking for us to give them a hand.

Miss Weekes: Well, there is an opportunity; you have taken it, I am sure.

Mr Mann: Well, some departments do, and we do encourage – and we spread the word to our members that these people want you to be there, so they welcome you, take the opportunity.

I can give you one example where – talking about role models, Special Branch is one department where we are very reasonably represented, because once you get one or two people in – and obviously they are your friends, and they talk to you and guide you, and other people can break through, but it needs the first one to get through.

Miss Weekes: Yes. Thank you very much for your help.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Singh. I now invite Sir Anthony Burden to put one or two questions to you.

Questions by Sir Anthony Burden

Sir Anthony Burden: You are the first operational ethnic officer that we have had a chance to speak to, so forgive me if I take the opportunity just to test one or two things with you. We have been told on several occasions now of the reluctance of managers locally to manage, particularly members of minority ethnic staff, we guess because of the fear of counter racist allegations.

Because of that refusal to grip issues locally, there is a tendency to report them officially to the directorate of professional standards, and everything becomes very official very quickly. Would that be your experience?

Mr Mann: Yes, it is. Lots and lots of the problems which we have come across are very, very minor problems, which become major problems because of the lack of handling.

Had it been – if there was a mechanism whereby people could actually sit round a table and sort it out at a very, very early stage, then people can sort it out; people can talk about it. Like I said, the whole process becomes the big thing.

For example, when we first started, we found that lots of complaints were not being dealt with quickly, and they would be ignored. The length of the time to investigate them would become the main issue, or who investigated it. And, as I said, communication was one of the points which was flagged up earlier; people were not being told what was happening. People were being left to their own devices to find out what was happening.

So lots of minor things became major things because of neglect, and lots of managers' reluctance to take charge and manage.

Sir Anthony Burden: We have also heard that possibly one of the reasons for that that has been put forward is that there is a blame culture and a fear of getting things wrong if you try and resolve things locally. Would you accept that?

Mr Mann: Yes, I would. I get things wrong every day, and I think as soon as the MPS accepts that, getting wrong is not a problem. Getting things wrong again and again and again is a problem.

If people do get it wrong, people should not be sacked or demoted or whatever, as long as it is done with good intent. If the intent is not there, if there is ill intent, then yes, people should be sacked or demoted, but people make mistakes every day of their life. People should be held accountable to that.

Sir Anthony Burden: Thank you. Can I move on to a separate issue? We have received an individual submission from one of your colleagues who whilst at Hendon was challenged about his appearance, which immediately impacted upon his religion and his religious beliefs.

He makes the point that although he had to go to great lengths to convince the staff at Hendon that, in terms of appearance, it was in accordance with his religion, that when he became more familiar with the workings of the Metropolitan Police Service, he actually found a policy that would have told the officers that, if they had only bothered to read the policy.

Mr Mann: That has happened at least about half a dozen times, where the trainers do not know the policy.

Sir Anthony Burden: So if you have got people in middle rank positions within the service who do not understand about, for example, the Sikh religion, but obviously other religions, have there been any initiatives to perhaps invite members of staff to attend gurdwaras to listen to inputs on the Sikh religion and Sikh culture?

Mr Mann: Yes. We actually held a cultural evening in November 2002, about 140 or 150 members of the MPS attended, but unfortunately, there seems to be a culture that if you do take an interest in faith, then you are a bit strange, that people of faith are a bit strange. Even if you have an interest, you must not show it.

Sir Anthony Burden: But from an organisational viewpoint, surely if an operational officer has reason to call at a Sikh household, maybe in relation to an incident involving a young female member of the family who may be a victim, an understanding of the Sikh culture is absolutely essential in such circumstances, is it not, you would think?

Mr Mann: Not necessarily. I think an attitude is essential, an attitude to learn. As I said, I do not know about all the other faiths in this world, but I take the attitude that if I do not know, I will ask. I will ask with respect, and if I can do that, then I cannot see why anybody should take offence.

Sir Anthony Burden: So what you heard earlier this afternoon from your colleagues in the Christian Police Association, who are very well-versed with diversity training, would you agree that the millions of pounds and the millions of personhours spent on diversity training – that the messages do not seem to be getting through that permafrost that you have mentioned? At the top, there is no problem, but in terms of middle managers and on the ground, the message is not being received positively.

Mr Mann: Lip service is paid, and at the right time, ie promotion, people say and do the right things, but in reality, people do not. The training is wasted. I totally agree with the CPA on that. Attitudes need to change, not just training. But it has not, unfortunately.

Sir Anthony Burden: And as you heard your colleague say, would you agree that management grip at local level is also important?

Mr Mann: It is. I have seen several very good managers who lead by example, and if they take the attitude, then I think most police officers do follow.

I remember, this is going back quite some time ago, in 1989, I was part of a public order seal outside a local temple, because there was arguments between the two groups of people running the temple.

The attitude was, "No, we will not enter the temple" – people were going to enter the temple with their shoes on, "There is no way we are going to take our shoes off". Well, the Chief Inspector came along and he took his shoes off and he went in, and everybody else meekly followed. Whereas before, everybody was vociferous that they would not.

It took one person to lead and everybody followed. I remember looking at everybody's faces, and all these hard men, you know, who did not want to take their shoes off no matter what, did. He led by example, this Chief Inspector.

Sir Anthony Burden: I am very pleased to hear it.

Can I just finally pursue one issue that my colleague Miss Weekes mentioned earlier, and that is about specialist department appointments? There may or may not be, but can I just ask whether you are aware of any positive action initiatives in the MPS that would encourage and support Sikh officers who are looking to apply for specialist appointments to assist them in their application, to make them aware of the department and perhaps ensure they are on a level playing field with their white colleagues when it comes to their applications?

Mr Mann: I think it is left to individual departments, and there have been a few departments who have contacted us, and we have supported them, and we have spread the word, we have encouraged our members to come and join them, and basically look at them; it may not be for them, but at least if they are aware of what the possibilities are, then they should look at them, and it may be something they may want to go to – maybe not immediately, but in a few years' time, and we have supported them, but there does not seem to be an MPS-wide policy to do that.

Sir Anthony Burden: And certainly not that you are aware of, and as chairman of the Sikh Association, just retired, you would have been, I guess.

Mr Mann: Apart from one policy, which is for minority CID officers, for female and minority group officers.

Sir Anthony Burden: Yes, we have heard of that. Thank you very much indeed, that was very helpful.

Sir William Morris: Mr Singh, thank you very much indeed for responding to our questions. At the end of my introductory comments, I did indicate that I would offer to you the opportunity to make any closing statements or remarks that you wish to offer to us. If you do so wish, this is the time to do it.

Mr Mann: I was listening earlier on to the CPS submission, and you were asking them about other positive things which the MPS has done, and I remember looking at this; the CCRU, I do not know whether you are aware of the CCRU? The Community and Cultural Resource Unit was one thing which has had quite a positive effect on minority officers, because it gives them a chance to give that added value to their service careers. It gives them a chance to contribute a bit more than what they were doing in normal circumstances. And that is something to be encouraged, and the MPS is to be congratulated on that.

Again, the Samurai group, all the five faiths are there. It is not just something we acknowledge, we actually support each other on most issues. We acknowledge the fact we are different, but we all have the right to be different, and we support each other in any way we can.

As Bob Pull said, it is a role model across the MPS – not just across the MPS, but other police services are looking at us, I know certainly the City of London police have adopted it, and they have come to us to advise them.

You also talked about – I think you asked the question about what is the best tool. The intranet is not a very good tool. It is a very poor tool. We have information overload, policies overload. We as operational police officers do not have the time to sit down and read everything that is thrown at us. If it was, we would never actually go out on patrol or go and serve the community. I think if anything, we need to cut down on the paperwork, cut down on policies and cut down on the information which we have to take in.

All I want to do is basically have lots and lots more minority officers in the police service to change the attitude. That is one of the reasons why I joined. I do not believe in standing on the sidelines, I believe in joining the police service and making a difference, and I want more and more officers to come and join us.

Sir William Morris: Okay, thank you very much. For the record, let me just conclude by saying that as with all our witnesses, it may be that once we have heard from others, we will want to ask you a few more questions, either by writing to you or asking you to come back to one of these hearings. If we do need to ask further questions or indeed write to you, we will try and do so in a way which affords the least inconvenience to you. But for the moment, all that I need to do, on behalf of my two colleagues, is to thank you very much indeed for coming along, and to thank you for the contribution that you are making to this Inquiry. Thank you very much.

Mr Mann: Thank you very much.

On this website:

• Evidence: Mr K S Mann, MPSA
  Evidence provided by and documents referred to by Mr K S Mann, Metropolitan Police Sikh Association, in his appearance at the Inquiry.