1
 1   (2.00 pm)
 2                          MR RAY POWELL
 3                        MR DAVE McFARLANE
 4                        MS PATRICIA McLEOD
 5   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Mr Powell, good afternoon to you, and
 6       good afternoon, everyone.  Can I start by saying how
 7       much we appreciate your acceptance of our invitation to
 8       attend the Inquiry and to give evidence, and indeed for
 9       letting us have your very full submission which we found
10       extremely helpful.
11           I do appreciate that for some of our witnesses, any
12       process of this nature may seem somewhat daunting, so
13       I thought it would be helpful if I set out briefly how
14       we propose to conduct the hearing this afternoon.
15           But first, let me introduce myself and the other
16       members of my panel.  I am Sir Bill Morris, recently
17       retired General Secretary of the Transport and General
18       Workers Union.  As you can see, there are two other
19       members of the panel.  On my right is
20       Sir Anthony Burden, who recently retired as Chief
21       Constable of the South Wales Constabulary after a very
22       long and distinguished career in the police service.  On
23       my left is Ms Anesta Weekes QC.  Anesta is an eminent
24       barrister who sits as a recorder and part-time
25       chairperson of employment tribunals.  She was also
 
     2
 1       counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry.
 2           Mr Powell, as you know, we have been tasked by the
 3       Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent
 4       inquiry into professional standards and employment
 5       matters in the Metropolitan Police Service.  Our focus
 6       is the MPS as an organisation and not the individuals
 7       who make up that organisation.  The inquiry that we are
 8       conducting is inquisitorial and not adversarial in
 9       character or indeed in nature.
10           We are very keen to enquire into the issues raised
11       by our terms of reference so that we can make
12       appropriate recommendation for further good practice,
13       rather than concentrating on making criticisms of the
14       MPS as an organisation, or the individuals.
15           To help us in our task, we are very keen to hear
16       from all our witnesses not just about what is wrong with
17       the Metropolitan Police Service but what is right with
18       it; but more importantly, your suggestions for making it
19       better.
20           A transcript is being taken, so that we have
21       a proper record of the evidence given by all our
22       witnesses, and this will be posted on our website later
23       today.
24           At the end of these introductory remarks, I will
25       lead on the questions to you, followed by my colleague,
 
     3
 1       Sir Anthony Burden, and then followed by Miss Weekes.
 2       Any supplementary questions which I might find necessary
 3       I will also put to you.  At the conclusion of our
 4       questions, I will offer you a very brief opportunity to
 5       make a closing statement if you so wish.
 6           Mr Powell, in your written submission, you have
 7       offered us evidence on a whole range of issues, but in
 8       particular, you have pointed us to the NBPA and its
 9       goals, you have talked in broad terms about the Inquiry
10       itself, the Morris Inquiry, and you have indicated the
11       NBPA's concern over Operation Helios.  You have
12       indicated the circumstances insofar as it affected
13       Chief Inspector Leroy Logan, and finally, you have
14       addressed us in the submission on the issue of
15       proportionality.
16           As I mentioned when we launched our Inquiry on
17       21st January and when we commenced our second stage of
18       hearing here on the 29th, I said, and I say again, that
19       this is an inquiry into professional standards and
20       employment matters in the Metropolitan Police Service;
21       it is not an inquiry about race or indeed community
22       policing.  Their Lordships Scarman and MacPherson have
23       already considered and reported on those issues.  Our
24       focus is on the Met as an organisation, and our brief is
25       to look at a range of issues relating to professional
 
     4
 1       standards and workplace practices within that
 2       organisation.
 3           As part of our work, we are tasked with looking at
 4       some individual cases, but we shall not revisit the
 5       past, except where it informs the future, and to
 6       identify lessons to be learnt.
 7           In your submission, you have at some length
 8       identified two high-profile cases, but for the record,
 9       and for your information, let me again put on record the
10       following statement, as I did last week.  It reads as
11       follows: I know that you are familiar with the terms of
12       reference for this Inquiry.  As you are aware, one
13       aspect of our task is to examine the lessons to be
14       learnt from high-profile cases.
15           These cases, by definition, relate to individuals,
16       and will be dealt with in the same way as submissions we
17       have received from other individuals.  We have not yet
18       reached that part of our work, and therefore, today, we
19       will not be asking any questions about any of the
20       high-profile cases that we will consider.
21           We will, of course, notify all the parties concerned
22       when we have reached this stage of the Inquiry, and may
23       seek your assistance again at that point.
24           The panel has your written submission, and wishes to
25       concentrate in its questioning today on issues that
 
     5
 1       focus more generally on policies, practice and
 2       procedures, which are the key issues which we are asked
 3       to consider.  Before we do so, however, for the benefit
 4       of the transcript, I wonder whether you would mind
 5       formally introducing yourself and indeed your colleagues
 6       to the Inquiry.
 7   MR POWELL:  Ray Powell, I am the president of the National
 8       Black Police Association.  I have been working with the
 9       National Black Police Association now for the past four
10       years, initially as chairman of the subcommittees,
11       followed by a spell as the general secretary, and since
12       September, being elected as the president for the NBPA.
13           To my left I have Patricia McLeod, who is a previous
14       vice president of the National Black Police Association.
15       She also had corporate responsibility for support cases
16       nationally for the NBPA, and women's issues as well as
17       gender issues as well within the NBPA.
18           To my rear, I have Dave McFarlane.  Dave is the
19       national co-ordinator for the NBPA.  He has been with
20       the National Black Police Association since its
21       conception and prior to that, he has had quite
22       a significant national overview for support cases, and
23       also within the Metropolitan Police Service.  Both my
24       colleagues are also Met police officers.
25   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Thank you very much indeed, Mr Powell.
 
     6
 1                 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS
 2   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  My colleagues and I have heard from the
 3       Metropolitan Police Service branch of your organisation
 4       about its relationship with the Police Federation.
 5       Could you help us by just sharing with us: what is the
 6       relationship like at national level between the NBPA and
 7       the Federation?
 8   MR POWELL:  At a national level, it is a reasonable
 9       relationship.  We have been working with the Federation,
10       undertaking regular meetings with them, certainly since
11       the launch of the National Black Police Association.
12       This started when I was the chair of the staff
13       association and partnerships committee.  We have regular
14       meetings in respect of diversity, regular meetings in
15       respect of funding protocols, and we have quite a decent
16       working relationship, I would suggest.
17           It does fall down, however, at the national level,
18       where I would suggest that the relationship between the
19       joint branch boards at the local level and the local
20       black police associations could be better.  There are
21       areas for improvement, I would suggest, in respect of
22       that relationship.
23   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Apart from the issues that you have
24       touched on where some activities are taking place, are
25       there any joint campaigns that the two organisations are
 
     7
 1       engaged in together?
 2   MR POWELL:  Yes, there are.  There are a number of campaigns
 3       that we are actually looking at.  One of the biggest
 4       issues with the Federation is to do with education and
 5       educating their staff at all levels within the
 6       Federation.
 7           At this time, there is a general concern that the
 8       representation at a local level for black staff is very,
 9       very poor.  We have people who have been elected as
10       branch board members who have been there for years and
11       years and years, and they seem to be in place, you know,
12       no matter what actually happens.
13           As a result of this, there is very little skill, as
14       we see it, in respect of dealing with issues in respect
15       of gender, in respect of race, and in respect of
16       diversity in general.  More often than not, the position
17       of our members is compromised as a result of this,
18       because they seem to be, for want of a better phrase,
19       closely aligned with the organisation.
20           So we have actually offered our services to the
21       Federation on several occasions now to be involved in
22       equality training of their local representatives.  As
23       yet, this has had a limited sort of impact, and to date,
24       it has only resulted in minor discussions.
25           To build upon that, another initiative is looking at
 
     8
 1       the representation of black members within the federated
 2       ranks.  Right now, this is very, very poor.  There have
 3       been a number of our colleagues that have put their
 4       names forward, but locally, this has been challenged; in
 5       some cases, I would suggest, inappropriately challenged
 6       as well, from the Federation's perspective.
 7           We are looking at this, and we have had meetings
 8       with the Federation to look at a joint initiative in
 9       order to try to run familiarisation days,
10       familiarisation courses, with our members, in order to
11       try to sort of raise their awareness in respect of what
12       they can do for their own force but also for their own
13       local BPAs as well, in order to raise the awareness and
14       to put more people forward for representation on the
15       joint branch boards.
16           Right now, that representation just is not there, so
17       we are looking at a campaign between ourselves and the
18       Federation in order to try to improve that sort of rate,
19       but yes, it is not there.
20   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Clearly your organisation, in terms of
21       its individual members and the collective body, brings
22       a tremendous amount of expertise in the areas that you
23       have talked about -- you have talked about diversity,
24       you have talked about race/gender issues -- and the
25       assumption is that not only would the Federation
 
     9
 1       benefit, but your members would benefit as well, and
 2       indeed, the service would benefit.
 3           Could I ask whether, in the long term -- not here
 4       and now, tomorrow, but in the long term, whether there
 5       are any sort of confidence-building measures that you
 6       envisage taking place which would perhaps lead to the
 7       agreement and implementation of a joint protocol around
 8       some of the areas of common concern that you have
 9       identified?
10   MR POWELL:  Yes, hopefully, there will be, you know, we
11       already have a memorandum of understanding between
12       ourselves and the Superintendents Association.  We have
13       developing memorandums of understanding between
14       ourselves and Unison and ourselves and the other staff
15       support associations such as BAWP and the Gay Police
16       Association as well.
17           We hopefully will be making moves for a similar
18       memorandum of understanding with the Federation, but
19       there will be complications with the Federation, because
20       of the hierarchical sort of structure within that
21       organisation.  It is okay us putting this to them
22       nationally, but then this has to really be passed down
23       amongst their members at a local level as well, for
24       their approval.  I think it is a little bit archaic, but
25       subsequently, hopefully, that will come to fruition, as
 
    10
 1       it will with ACPO as well.
 2   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I think my colleagues and myself, based
 3       on the evidence that we have had and explored, are
 4       reasonably clear about what is the NBPA's relationship
 5       with the Met BPA, how that stands and how it regulates
 6       itself.
 7           Could you tell us, what is the relationship like in
 8       other police forces, outside of the Met, the
 9       relationship, and how does the organisation operate
10       nationally, save for the Met, which we think we are
11       clear about?
12   MR POWELL:  Okay, the National Black Police Association is
13       an umbrella association responsible for now 40 local
14       black police associations around the country, that is 40
15       out of the 43 forces.  These also include forces in
16       Scotland and also Northern Ireland.
17           Each one of these forces elects a member to
18       represent the views of their local force at a national
19       level, and they form the basis of the national executive
20       committee, which meets four times a year, approximately.
21           From this committee is elected the strategic head of
22       the association, the president, vice president male,
23       vice president female, general secretary, et cetera, the
24       strategic head.
25           The relationship with the rest of the forces is
 
    11
 1       governed by our support for them.  We are a guardian
 2       torch for these local forces, in essence; we believe in
 3       empowering the local black police associations in
 4       developing their own aims and objectives, their own
 5       methodology of working; we encourage them to look at
 6       recruitment, retention, progression issues, and that
 7       support is given in that respect as well.
 8           But we provide also support and advice for cases of
 9       unfairness and inequalities; we are a support network,
10       first and foremost, and we take the support of our
11       members very, very seriously, so we are there as
12       an advisory -- in an advisory capacity when it comes to
13       issues of support for black staff within the police
14       service.
15   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I think that it is right that I just
16       share with you one of the prompting reasons for our
17       questions here, because the Inquiry is primarily about
18       the Metropolitan Police Service, and of course the Met
19       BPA has submitted evidence.  We are not quite sure as to
20       where the autonomy starts and where it ends between the
21       Met BPA and the National BPA, because your submission is
22       the more substantive of the two, in terms of volume, if
23       nothing else, and the issues around which you base the
24       submission.
25           What my colleagues and I just want to really
 
    12
 1       understand is whose voice it is that we must listen to
 2       here, because there are qualitative and quantitative
 3       differences between the two approaches, so we really
 4       need some clarity here about which voice we listen to.
 5       Is it the Met BPA, which is the principal organisation
 6       insofar as our terms of reference are concerned, or is
 7       it the National BPA, who we would assume, wrongly or
 8       rightly, take a more strategic overview interest rather
 9       than the measures of detail; so can you help us, please?
10   MR POWELL:  I believe you need to listen to both in detail,
11       I would suggest.  The National BPA --
12   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Why?
13   MR POWELL:  The National BPA became involved because the
14       issues affecting the Metropolitan Police Service are
15       issues that are echoed throughout the country.  The
16       methodology that is utilised in investigating black
17       staff is again echoed nationally.  You know, the only
18       situation is that the Met is a far bigger force,
19       therefore more high-profile, but the impact upon
20       individuals nationally is equally as devastating as it
21       has been upon the high-profile cases that we have
22       alluded to within our submissions.
23           So therefore, what actually happens within the Met
24       does have a significant impact on the feeling nationally
25       amongst black staff within the police service.
 
    13
 1   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I hear what you say, but you see our
 2       difficulty, do you not, insofar as we have to respond to
 3       the body that established this Inquiry, and a lot of, if
 4       you like, ownership is being claimed for it, but we will
 5       leave that aside; but our obligation, insofar as our
 6       terms of reference go, is to deliver a report to the
 7       body which commissions the Inquiry and within the
 8       constraints of the terms of reference.
 9           We are also very mindful that the
10       Metropolitan Police Service has a local representative
11       body who is at the sharp end on a day-to-day basis, and
12       have responsibility for implementing, regulating and
13       indeed maintaining relationships about any
14       recommendation which we may make.
15           It is very sort of attractive to say that we should
16       listen to both, and of course we will listen to both,
17       this is the essence of your presence this afternoon, but
18       when that is said and done, we have to respond to the
19       constraints of our terms of reference.  I am assuming
20       you see that.
21   MR POWELL:  Yes, I understand what you are actually saying
22       here.  However -- I appreciate where you are coming
23       from, but there is value in both submissions and in both
24       views, and as far as I am concerned, we are here to
25       support and underpin the recommendations or the
 
    14
 1       submissions that have been placed before you from the
 2       Metropolitan Police Service as well; we are there to
 3       support their views, but also to aid and assist in any
 4       further developments of any recommendations that will
 5       prove useful to both.
 6           But I must also point out that any recommendations
 7       that actually come out of this will have an impact
 8       nationally, and that is our interest in this, as well as
 9       that of the Metropolitan Police Service and our members
10       within the Metropolitan Police Service.
11   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But surely that can only be so if all
12       things are equal; for example, let me, just on the basis
13       of political governance, point out one or two
14       differences.  The Metropolitan Police Service, yes, they
15       have a Police Authority, it is called the MPA, but it
16       has a Mayor, who has more than a passing interest in its
17       activities.  It has another political body called the
18       GLA.  It has, right on its very doorstep, the chief
19       political responsibility of the Home Office, the Home
20       Secretary, and of course, it has 32 boroughs; well, can
21       you tell me where that is replicated anywhere in the
22       country, in terms of political governance?
23   MR POWELL:  No, there are demographic differences that I do
24       allude to, and the size of the Metropolitan Police
25       Service is one of them that is not replicated anywhere.
 
    15
 1           However, on the relationship between the
 2       Metropolitan Police Service, the Metropolitan Police
 3       Authority and the other associated bodies as well, that
 4       is replicated somewhat, I would suggest, within the
 5       local county forces.
 6           You know, there is an issue between whether there is
 7       a relationship between, for example, the ACPO team and
 8       the police authorities; the relationship between those
 9       and the council.  Some difficulties -- my belief is
10       between the police authorities and the governing mayors
11       of some towns.  There are these issues, it is all about
12       relationships.  If we can get the relationships right
13       and correct within the Met, then hopefully, it will
14       develop good practice for these other county forces as
15       well.  But I do allude to the fact that there are
16       differences, significant differences, where some of the
17       recommendations may not actually be practicably
18       implemented due to the demographics of county forces.
19       That is to be expected.
20   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  As part of our work, it is our
21       intention to make a number of visits to police services
22       outside of London.  So far, we intend to visit the West
23       Midlands, Greater Manchester and perhaps Merseyside.
24           Could you explain what, in your view, are the
25       lessons which you would like us to take with us, and
 
    16
 1       indicate how relevant those may be in terms of
 2       practices, procedures, process, organisation; is it
 3       a nationwide problem we are looking at here, or is it
 4       a problem peculiar to the MPS?
 5   MR POWELL:  I would suggest it is a nationwide problem that
 6       we have here.  The investigation of black staff and the
 7       disproportionality is reflected -- to varying degrees,
 8       I may add, but it is reflected in other forces.  The
 9       style of investigation, for example, the fact that when
10       people take out employment tribunals within county
11       forces, as opposed to the Metropolitan Police Force, and
12       these other metropolitan forces outside, they are
13       subject to further victimisation, and that is again
14       being reflected within the Metropolitan Police Service.
15           The relationship between the professional standards
16       departments and the CPS, for example, again is
17       questionable, but that again is reflected nationally.
18       And again, the relationship between some independent
19       advisory groups and the police forces concerned has to
20       be, I believe, reviewed, because there are questionable
21       practices there that really need to be addressed.
22           They are just a few that I can think of right now,
23       that come to mind, that I think will significantly
24       impact upon black staff nationally.
25   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  What hard and firm statistical evidence
 
    17
 1       can you offer us to support the contention -- whether it
 2       is on the basis of proportionality or on the basis of
 3       actual -- that the problems in the other 42 services are
 4       more or less identical to the Met?  If it is that you
 5       are to persuade us that it is a problem with national
 6       characteristics, then clearly you would want to offer
 7       some hard, firm statistical evidence, because we will
 8       not be interviewing every Chief Constable in the land,
 9       because we have no remit to do so.
10           We are visiting at least three services to test some
11       of the issues for ourselves, but if you are suggesting
12       that there is commonality on issues around tribunals,
13       there is commonality around issues like directorates of
14       professional standards, commonality about how the CPA,
15       in its day, responded, then that is going to need some
16       pretty tough, firm, clear, hard evidence, is it not, so
17       that the comparative dimension can in fact be measured
18       before that can be taken as intellectually sound; do you
19       agree?
20   MR POWELL:  I agree.
21   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Fine.  Just moving on, I said that we
22       are not just interested about what is bad with the Met,
23       what is good with the Met; the key to our existence is:
24       how can we collectively, including the NBPA, the BPA and
25       the Federation, make it better?  Could you give us some
 
    18
 1       suggestions as to how we can make it better?
 2   MR POWELL:  There are a number of suggestions that come to
 3       mind.  The three main ones, I would suggest, are
 4       basically effective consultation at all levels and
 5       support for the BPAs and their members, and also valuing
 6       those members and the contribution that they can make to
 7       the development of policies, strategies and guidelines,
 8       et cetera, within the Metropolitan Police, and indeed
 9       within any police service.
10           Secondly, I would suggest that there needs to be
11       an element of independence, an independent screening
12       system that can be called upon at times when there
13       appears to be a sort of disparity or disparate view in
14       respect of how staff are being treated, for example when
15       it comes to employment tribunals, et cetera.  There
16       should be some screening system there that can be called
17       upon, and that may include the assistance of local BPAs,
18       other BPAs, just to sort of facilitate that, and again,
19       it is about valuing people, valuing their contributions.
20           Last but not least, there should be an element of,
21       I would suggest, accountability at all levels within the
22       police service with appropriate sanctions,
23       an accountability that can be seen, that will make
24       a difference to the attitudes of black staff.  Because
25       right now, we seem to be going through turmoil, I would
 
    19
 1       suggest, nationally; however, there are very few
 2       sanctions that appear to have been taken in respect of
 3       when the organisation has actually got it wrong, and
 4       this is not seen -- it certainly is not seen at chief
 5       officer level.
 6   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  You have offered us a fair list of
 7       recommendations that you would like us to adopt, but
 8       like every list, there must be a priority, I suspect,
 9       somewhere there.  What is your top three and why?  From
10       your own list.
11   MR POWELL:  From my own list?
12   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Yes.
13   MR POWELL:  Excuse me while I refer to my list.
14   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I thought you would know it by heart.
15   MR POWELL:  Not quite. (Pause).  As a matter of priority,
16       I would suggest that number 6, you know, there is
17       a perception that ACPO officers are untouchable, that
18       would be one of my priorities in order to engage and
19       build confidence within the police service, not only the
20       police service, but also the communities as well,
21       because the communities are equally as affected when
22       there appears to be no sanctions against chief officers
23       for their wrongdoings.
24           Number 12, again, you know, there is a business case
25       to be made for the management of employment tribunal
 
    20
 1       claims taken out by the directorate of legal services,
 2       and given to an outside law firm, in order to work in
 3       (inaudible).  This again comes back to this screening
 4       device or screening system, whereby there is a degree of
 5       independence so as to prevent further suffering; you
 6       know, we are victims, and our members are victims, and
 7       for them to go through a lengthy employment tribunal to
 8       be postponed, to be stayed for various reasons that are
 9       usually, you know, reasons that we can actually
10       overcome -- they just remain victims.
11           The sooner we can get the employment tribunal
12       resolved, or our members' wishes resolved -- because
13       a lot of the time, these issues can be resolved at a
14       very, very early stage.  So certainly number 12 would be
15       one as well that I would put on my list of priorities.
16           Also the accountability aspect in respect of costs;
17       a significant amount of costs are being made in respect
18       of cases and investigations.  There appears to be no
19       accountability for these costs, or where these costs
20       have been; you know, it appears that there is an open
21       cheque book when it comes to the investigation of staff
22       who are subject to ETs, et cetera.  So I think there
23       needs to be some limits, some form of accountability,
24       certainly to the Police Authority, in respect of where
25       the taxpayers' money has been spent.
 
    21
 1   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  The budget is £2.5 billion; why should
 2       we find attractive a proposition which says that we must
 3       have accountability for tribunals and leave the other
 4       billions unaccounted?  Do you see my difficulty here?
 5   MR POWELL:  I see your difficulty, but, you know, when they
 6       are looking at, for example -- not quoting one of the
 7       high-profile cases in our submission, but a substantial
 8       amount of taxpayers' money, we estimate somewhere in the
 9       region of £7 million being spent, you know, surely the
10       public have a right to know where this money has been
11       spent and why it has been spent, and why it has been --
12       and also look at the outcomes as well.  You know, does
13       the spending of this money justify the outcomes in
14       respect of the allegations concerned?  That has got --
15       I feel that has got to be asked and addressed.
16   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But do you not think that is a question
17       best put to the people with the political responsibility
18       for overseeing how the money is spent, the MPA, for
19       example?
20   MR POWELL:  Possibly right, yes.  And that is something
21       that -- it is my belief that that is possibly something
22       that you can take forward.
23   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Can I just take a minute and just try
24       and understand your number two priority a little bit
25       better, because you talk about independence in relation
 
    22
 1       to industrial tribunals.  I am not very clear, and I do
 2       not know whether my colleagues are any clearer, about
 3       exactly what is meant there, because if you go through
 4       a mental audit of the process for an industrial
 5       tribunal: someone has a grievance, it has not been
 6       resolved, they submit an industrial tribunal claim,
 7       there is a process of ACAS involvement for conciliation,
 8       and so the thing goes through.
 9           At what point would the independence come in, and
10       how would that independence -- is it an independent
11       person, an independent body?  What do you mean?  Can you
12       help us?
13   MR POWELL:  The intervention would be at the earliest
14       opportunity, I would suggest.  This intervention needs
15       to be a person or persons who are trained, legally
16       trained, who have the knowledge, the expertise would be
17       helpful of the organisation concerned as well, but do
18       not have a vested interest in either side, either party,
19       so as to look at this objectively.
20           This, as well as hopefully saving time, saving money
21       and also the suffering of the victim, would also
22       appease, I would suggest, the victims' perceptions that
23       they may be wrong or the organisation is wrong.  It is
24       just a degree of independence that could basically build
25       some sort of confidence within the victims concerned,
 
    23
 1       and also the organisation, to say, "Look, are we going
 2       down the right track here?  Do we need to go down this
 3       track?  Is there a better way, a better solution to this
 4       issue that is going to be acceptable to all parties
 5       concerned, before it even gets out of the box?", for
 6       want of a better phrase.
 7   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But is that not exactly what ACAS is
 8       supposed to be doing now?  Because once an ET1 is
 9       registered, automatically, by statute, the ACAS
10       conciliation facilities kick in, and they take the
11       opportunity to explore with both parties -- and they are
12       independent, if any institution is.  So I am not quite
13       sure what beyond ACAS -- and the role you have described
14       is exactly what they are supposed to be doing; how
15       another tier or duplicating that would be of any value.
16   MR POWELL:  Right, it basically refers to the manning of
17       employment tribunal claims to be taken out of the
18       directorate of legal services, the hands of these --
19       I think it is the involvement.
20   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  That is a different question.
21   MR POWELL:  Yes, that is what I am actually -- it is the
22       involvement of the directorate of legal services that is
23       the issue here, I would suggest.
24   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But that is a different question,
25       though, from talking about injecting an independent
 
    24
 1       oversight who would give confidence to the victim,
 2       oversee, look at a whole raft of measures which the
 3       transcript will show you invited us would be the result;
 4       where it is located is a different question.
 5           We understand your organisation's position on
 6       location of employment tribunals, it is in within the
 7       directorate of professional standards, and you do not
 8       think it is appropriate where it is, for all sorts of
 9       reasons that we will not rehearse now.
10           All I am saying at this point -- I want to be
11       absolutely clear that where it is located is one
12       question; the degree of independence in the process is
13       a different question, as I am understanding it, and I am
14       saying there is a degree of independence now, through
15       the arbitration and conciliation service ACAS, and I am
16       anxious to know whether you are recognising that, and if
17       you are not, are you proposing an alternative to ACAS?
18       I am not sure.
19   MR POWELL:  No, I do recognise that, I do recognise what
20       ACAS can bring to the table without a doubt, and that
21       should be positively encouraged, that degree of
22       independence.
23   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Thank you very much indeed for the
24       clarity.  Thanks again.  Can I pass you straight over to
25       my colleague, Sir Anthony Burden, to pick up the
 
    25
 1       questions, please?
 2                 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN
 3   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Thank you, chairman.  Can I deal with
 4       gender issues, please, and ask you firstly whether you
 5       feel that race has swamped the agenda for gender?
 6   MR POWELL:  No, I would not agree with that at all.  I do
 7       not think it has swamped the gender agenda as such.
 8       There are issues in respect of gender, that is certainly
 9       acknowledged by me, and there is a degree, I would
10       suggest, of sensitivity when you are dealing with race
11       issues, when gender issues come to the table, to be very
12       sensitive to those issues as well.
13           I know that has been said, I know that there is
14       a concern that race has swamped the gender agenda, but
15       I feel that is certainly still alive, alive and kicking.
16   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Can I perhaps bring your colleague,
17       Ms McLeod, in here and see what her views are.
18   MS McLEOD:  I have to say, I slightly disagree.  I was
19       a vice president for the National BPA for two years and
20       part of my portfolio was to deal with gender in the
21       first contact support.  I was also first contact support
22       co-ordinator for the Metropolitan Police Black Police
23       Association.  There was a conference, "Women in the
24       shade", a couple of years ago that talked about a lot of
25       issues that some of us black female officers and support
 
    26
 1       staff were having, and as a result of that, I formed
 2       a National Black Police Association women's group, which
 3       had representation from females from all the BPAs round
 4       the country.
 5           We had our first meeting last October -- sorry, the
 6       year before, and out of that meeting, there was a common
 7       thread of problems that females were having, not only
 8       from their respective forces, but also from some of the
 9       BPAs.
10           I think gender is not addressed as much as it should
11       be, and, you know, there are a lot more things that can
12       be done to make things better.
13   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Can I just put up a profile which you
14       would have seen last week?  This actually relates to the
15       Metropolitan Police, so if I could ask you firstly --
16       that shows the rank profile within the
17       Metropolitan Police, and also shows black and visible
18       ethnic minority female police staff by pay band.  Now
19       that does not tell us anything, but I think what it does
20       tell us is that black female staff do not seem to be
21       breaking through the rank structure, either in police or
22       in police staff terms; would that be an accurate
23       reflection?
24   MS McLEOD:  I think so, yes.
25   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Could I ask you whether that is
 
    27
 1       mirrored across the whole of the service, do you think?
 2   MS McLEOD:  I think so, yes.
 3   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  So there is a definite issue across the
 4       whole of the UK in relation to female black staff.
 5           We have been told about some positive schemes which
 6       are going on, I think particularly in relation to CID
 7       within the Met, female representation within CID, and
 8       black female representation within CID.  Are any of the
 9       current initiatives, do you think, likely to have any
10       massive impact on furthering the cause of black women in
11       the Metropolitan Police?
12   MS McLEOD:  I cannot really answer for the CID aspect,
13       because I am a police constable for the diplomatic
14       protection group, but it appears that we will offer
15       training -- there is lack of training within a lot of
16       areas.  As police constables, you are not given the
17       encouragement to go for promotion, especially if you are
18       seen to challenge certain things.
19           On the other side of it, you can be trained, but you
20       are not utilised.  You will get other officers that are
21       lesser skilled that will be selected when it comes to
22       certain operations.  That is how it appears, in my
23       personal opinion -- in my experience, and also the
24       dealings I have had as first contact support advisor,
25       and also chairing the National BPA women's group.
 
    28
 1   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Your initiative "in the shade"; did
 2       that come up with any positive recommendations as to
 3       what could and should be done to improve the situation?
 4   MS McLEOD:  A lot of issues were brought up about childcare,
 5       training needs, being empowered to be selected to go up
 6       for promotion, being encouraged, have some self-worth,
 7       of which the next step was us setting up this National
 8       BPA women's group which we are finalising, you know, our
 9       issues of where we want to go forward.
10   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  And in the Metropolitan Police
11       specifically?  I mean, it is your organisation.  What do
12       you feel ought to be done to promote the gender agenda
13       more positively?
14   MS McLEOD:  I think -- there just appears to be a lot of
15       black female officers as well as support staff that are
16       having problems within the Metropolitan Police.  They
17       need to listen to us.  It just appears that, you know,
18       if you challenge, you are overlooked for certain things,
19       you are not -- some are trained, some are not trained,
20       there is not enough encouragement.  To be treated
21       fairly; when you go through a certain period in your
22       work and you are treated unfairly, it is really hard to
23       sort of -- you do not get selected as you should do, as
24       other people get selected when certain postings come
25       about.
 
    29
 1           It is quite difficult, because it just -- with the
 2       people that I come into contact with as first contact
 3       support, they seem to have the same problems.  We are
 4       not being encouraged to go ahead, you know, into
 5       promotion.
 6           There is the facility there, but there are some
 7       supervisors that just do not like it when you challenge
 8       certain things, and you just do not get selected, or,
 9       you know, you will be trained and better skilled than
10       some people, and you just do not get selected because
11       you are too loud, you know, you put your head above
12       everybody else, challenging certain things to make
13       things better.
14           You know, we have got the Metropolitan Police BPA --
15       we have set up a women's forum, we have got -- there is
16       quite a lot of support staff who have degrees within the
17       Metropolitan Police who are not in the higher ranks.
18       What is part of our women's forum group -- what we did
19       was went round to a couple of police stations and had a
20       thing for two hours or so, embracing support staff and
21       female officers, it was mainly support staff, just kind
22       of embracing -- giving them some ideas on how we can
23       move forward to challenge things in the workplace,
24       because a lot of people are still suffering in silence,
25       and to encourage them to apply for promotion when it
 
    30
 1       comes up.
 2           Because they have had other white support staff that
 3       have come into the office, have not been there very
 4       long, not so skilled, but they are in the next rank.
 5       Whereas a black support staff is in the office, got
 6       a degree, and got certain skills, but they do not get
 7       promotion, and when they apply, they get turned down.
 8   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  And is that challenged?
 9   MS McLEOD:  It is challenged, but you will have a lot of
10       people -- some support staff, I cannot answer for
11       everybody, you get low esteem, they do not have the
12       confidence, because they have applied over a certain
13       amount of time, you know, they just do not go through.
14       But the other side of it -- within the BPA women's
15       forum, we have a DCAF which is like training needs for
16       men and women, and we would encourage -- you know, help
17       your applications, give you mock exams, and people that
18       have actually failed on a few occasions getting through
19       have actually got through once we have helped them
20       through.
21   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  And that is the BPA doing that?
22   MS McLEOD:  That is the BPA women's forum; they have a DCAF
23       which is like another subpart to the BPA in the
24       Metropolitan Police.
25   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  So the BPA is very much attempting to
 
    31
 1       support and take care of those officers, but there is
 2       nothing within the Metropolitan Police as far as you are
 3       aware that replicates that or would reinforce it?
 4   MS McLEOD:  I am sorry, what do you mean?
 5   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Well, there is nothing formal that the
 6       Metropolitan Police is producing -- I mean, the BPA have
 7       put this programme in place, and is obviously doing good
 8       work to support officers and police staff, but there is
 9       nothing formal, from the Metropolitan Police viewpoint,
10       that is actually doing that for you.
11   MS McLEOD:  No.
12   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Forgive me, but you are the first black
13       female officer we have seen since we have been sitting.
14   MS McLEOD:  Yes.
15   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  If I could just ask you a few
16       questions, if I may?  You have already alluded to it,
17       but is there anything else that you would want to say to
18       us that would give us an insight into what it is like to
19       be a female black member of staff in the
20       Metropolitan Police in terms of the culture in which you
21       have to live?
22   MS McLEOD:  I have been in the police service for ten years.
23       It has not been easy.  I have done a lot of work with
24       the BPA, and with the Metropolitan Police.  The first
25       couple of years in my probation I was actually the
 
    32
 1       victim of sexual discrimination which I did not complain
 2       about, I sort of -- did not sort of know who to go to,
 3       because I thought if I complained, they would not
 4       support me very much.  I ended up moving from where
 5       I was, eventually.
 6           I have kind of then gone on within my career, I have
 7       worked in various locations, Orpington, Peckham.  As
 8       a woman, it is a lot harder, and being black is really
 9       hard, in terms of you have to work harder to get where
10       you want to get to.  You know, it is like sometimes you
11       get -- instead of the blow of being black, you get the
12       blow of obviously being a woman, it is like being
13       punched in the stomach twice sometimes with the way you
14       are treated sometimes by your colleagues.
15           There has been quite a few black officers, females,
16       that have left the organisation, because, you know,
17       there comes a time that you think -- sometimes you try,
18       when you are in a particular role, and other people are
19       selected when they have not got that experience, you
20       think, "Well, why am I going to bother?"  When you have
21       challenged it, certain parties who you are not happy
22       with have not been spoken to.
23           I cannot explain it; I think it is not an easy role
24       to be in, within the Metropolitan Police, as a female.
25       You know, I was a family liaison officer to Doreen and
 
    33
 1       Neville Lawrence for two years, very loyal to the job.
 2       The September 11th disaster came about, and a female
 3       officer, a white officer, had not even had a family,
 4       just come out of training school, it is like a couple of
 5       weeks' course -- it is a week's course for an FLO -- she
 6       got selected to go to New York to assist the British
 7       families and I and another couple in the office who were
 8       all black, had the skills and experience, were
 9       overlooked, they did not select us.
10           So it is kind of, as you keep going on through the
11       job -- that is why I keep emphasising about how you get
12       trained and skilled to do the work, but if you are seen
13       to challenge certain things they just do not select you,
14       and sometimes there comes a time when you think: I might
15       as well leave, because I have given my time and effort
16       to the job, and you do not get appreciated or you do not
17       feel valued.
18   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  We heard in another submission, I will
19       not bother to put up the quote, but a submission from
20       the Met trade unions, that referred to the
21       Metropolitan Police not wholly but partly as being
22       a very macho organisation.  Is that an accurate
23       description?
24   MS McLEOD:  I think so.  I have been in diplomatic
25       protection group for three years this November, and it
 
    34
 1       was quite known by some of the officers up there, who
 2       are predominantly mainly white -- there is currently
 3       about 700-odd officers.  I am currently the only female
 4       black officer within DPG.  When I started, they actually
 5       said, "You know, some of the officers are a bit dubious
 6       about you, because you are with the BPA", and it was
 7       like all very secret service, but a lot of the DPG are
 8       Masons.  Nothing is actually said about what goes on
 9       with the Masons, but it is okay to make me out to be
10       like I am doing something wrong.
11           You know, it is very much a culture in that one
12       thing is okay but other things are not okay, and it is
13       a dominantly white culture, unfortunately, and
14       male-orientated in certain areas, and a lot more room
15       for improvement.
16   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  I am very grateful to you for quoting
17       your own experiences very honestly.  If a young member
18       of female staff in the Metropolitan Police suffers
19       sexual harassment today, are there support networks to
20       help her?
21   MS McLEOD:  Yes, there is.
22   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Where would she go?
23   MS McLEOD:  One, they can go to supervisors, and if it is
24       a supervisor who they are not happy about, we have the
25       BPA support network, they can give us a call, say they
 
    35
 1       are not happy.  You know, I have got an example: there
 2       was a female who was having sexual and racial problems
 3       within her workplace, and she did not feel strong enough
 4       to talk about it, so -- because it was her supervisor.
 5       So she called and we dealt with it, basically, went up
 6       and spoke to the supervisor about it, and he was
 7       punished in a particular way, you know, it was dealt
 8       with.
 9   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Would those sort of networks be
10       well-known amongst the staff?
11   MS McLEOD:  Yes.
12   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Certainly in the BPA, you make sure it
13       is, I guess?
14   MS McLEOD:  Yes.
15   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  But for your white colleagues?
16   MS McLEOD:  Well, you have obviously got your supervisors,
17       you have got your Federation if you want advice, your
18       Unison.  We sometimes, if there is support needed, will
19       support white officers as well, if they need the
20       support.  You can give advice, sometimes you can, it is
21       not all -- a majority is supporting black officers and
22       support staff, but you can on occasions support white
23       officers as well, and white support staff.
24   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  And finally on this particular topic,
25       if you can help us, because you are a first contact
 
    36
 1       advisor, and therefore you are receiving issues of
 2       complaint and problems, could you help us at all with
 3       Hendon?  I think you were present last week when your
 4       colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Black Police
 5       Association were referring to this, and I made the
 6       comment then that we are getting conflicting reports
 7       about Hendon, and it is the gateway to the culture of
 8       this organisation, so it is vitally important that the
 9       culture at Hendon reflects the values that the
10       Commissioner has stipulated.
11           Are you or have you recently received any evidence
12       which would cause you to be concerned about the culture
13       at Hendon, either in relation to any racist behaviour,
14       sexist behaviour, or any bullying?
15   MS McLEOD:  I personally cannot comment on that.
16   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  That is fair enough.  If you have
17       not --
18   MS McLEOD:  I can pass you on to Dave McFarlane.
19   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Yes, if Mr McFarlane wants to come in.
20       Thank you very much indeed.
21   MR McFARLANE:  As well as being the national co-ordinator,
22       my colleague had mentioned last week that I was support
23       co-ordinator for the Met BPA as well, and on a couple of
24       occasions I have been to Hendon, also receiving a lot of
25       phone calls via the Black Police Association office
 
    37
 1       about cases of racism.
 2           We seem to be getting quite a few cases coming
 3       through with regards to the religious aspect, Muslim
 4       members of staff, obviously references after
 5       September 11th.  But certainly, a lot of staff felt like
 6       they did not feel very comfortable at all about being at
 7       Hendon, and the difficulties going through.  Some have
 8       resigned -- even though we are encouraging them not to,
 9       but obviously finding it difficult, they have done so.
10           But speaking to the staff -- the other difficulty we
11       had too is that invitations were given to them that they
12       could meet with us, and they were very reluctant to do
13       so.  Privately, they would contact us at the office, and
14       say the reason why is that they did not want to upset
15       their white colleagues, and they felt they would be
16       marginalised when they get back after having a meeting
17       with us, for some of the reasons my colleague mentioned
18       earlier on, that some people might see us as a private
19       or secret service, or too radical a group, and, of
20       course, being young in service, they would have their
21       concerns about that.
22   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Thank you very much indeed.  Can I move
23       on to another issue, and this is one that was raised by
24       the Metropolitan Black Police Association, and that is
25       in respect of legislation in Northern Ireland, if I can
 
    38
 1       just wait for it to come up; it relates to this
 2       provision in Northern Ireland which actually is aiming
 3       to ensure that the workforce reflects the communities of
 4       Northern Ireland.
 5           Please, if I am not putting the right interpretation
 6       on this, perhaps you will correct me, but it is, in all
 7       other terms, positive action, I think, a quota system,
 8       as some would say.
 9           Is this a piece of legislation that the National
10       Black Police Association would support in relation to
11       introduction across the UK?
12   MR POWELL:  We have concerns in respect of it, and these
13       concerns would obviously have to be addressed.  First of
14       all, we have got the management of such a system; the
15       management of a system, managing the backlash, the
16       backlash from white colleagues, also the management of
17       perceptions as well, and also that of the thinking of
18       our white colleagues within the service.  You know, all
19       these will have to be managed in some way, shape or
20       form.
21           So you have got to really ask the question: are we
22       actually ready for this sort of legislation in this
23       country, considering the demographics that we have here?
24       When you look at places such as the States, I would
25       suggest that the demographics are such that it does
 
    39
 1       actually benefit certain states within the
 2       United States; and where you have got a black to white
 3       population of 70:30, you can see why.
 4           But I would like to see everything else try to be
 5       exhausted first before going down this path, but also
 6       you have got the question around standards as well, the
 7       maintenance of standards within that.  You know, and
 8       also if you do it for black people, are you going to do
 9       it for female staff as well?  There are a lot of
10       concerns around this.  I am not saying for any minute
11       that it is not workable, possibly it is, but it has to
12       be very, very carefully thought out.
13           Like I say, you know, looking at the sort of
14       demographics of the service, and particularly that of
15       the Met, possibly there are some places within the Met
16       whereby that would be of benefit, I would suggest, and
17       it may be plausible -- if you look at implementing this
18       within any sort of police service, then the Met would
19       be, I would suggest, the prime sort of candidate to look
20       at.  But when you look at the county forces, I can see
21       there being some difficulties in implementing something
22       like this there.
23           I think Dave actually has had dealings with Northern
24       Ireland, with the Northern Ireland BPA, and he may have
25       an additional perspective to put to you on that.
 
    40
 1   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Please.
 2   MR McFARLANE:  Yes, I was working with BPA colleagues, black
 3       colleagues in Northern Ireland.  One concern for them is
 4       that with this particular practice, they have sort of
 5       been put into the Protestant section of things rather
 6       than the Catholic, so if you like, the issues for black
 7       staff have been slightly skewed in that direction.
 8           As I said, it was mainly set up because of that
 9       particular factor, not for black stuff, but because of
10       the religious background, so if you like, there is
11       a slight disadvantage for black staff.
12           However, I did ask: if we were to implement that
13       programme over here, do you see it as beneficial?  And
14       in their view, they said, yes, it would.  But as my
15       colleague said previously, we have to look at issues of
16       managing it carefully, so as not to isolate, if you
17       like, our colleagues who would have to give some way on
18       this matter.
19           They are saying obviously, on the Protestant side,
20       it is a big concern, and obviously criticise this form
21       of programme; however, the Catholics are ambivalent,
22       some are for it, some are not, but on the whole are
23       positive about it.  So their advice to us is if we can
24       get such a programme implemented here, then we should go
25       for it.
 
    41
 1   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  In terms of the aims of the
 2       legislation, it is producing the results, as far as they
 3       are concerned?
 4   MR McFARLANE:  They did not say as far as the results, but
 5       things are getting better, and certainly if we are going
 6       to redress 175 years of affirmative action which was, if
 7       you like, the gift of all Caucasian colleagues, then we
 8       are going to have to do something drastic, I would
 9       suggest.  But as my colleague says, it would have to be
10       managed properly.
11   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Can I just deal finally with one other
12       issue from me, and that is in relation to your comments
13       over the Lancet Inquiry and the Taylor report, and the
14       endorsement you have given to the Taylor report.  You
15       really do see benefits coming from that in terms of the
16       way that high-profile cases are managed, in relation to
17       proportionality and better monitoring of the proceedings
18       of that Inquiry through such a process.
19   MR McFARLANE:  Absolutely right, yes.  If the monitoring is
20       right, then we believe everything else will actually
21       follow, in respect of outcomes, not only for the
22       organisation but for the victim as well.
23   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Can I ask you, from a national
24       viewpoint, whether you are getting any feedback as to
25       whether forces are embracing the recommendations of the
 
    42
 1       Taylor report?
 2   MR McFARLANE:  I cannot really answer that one, I am not
 3       quite sure.
 4   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Thank you very much indeed.
 5   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  The next group of questions will come
 6       from Miss Weekes, but it is our practice to afford
 7       a rest to our stenographers round about this time, they
 8       have been going just over an hour and a quarter, so I am
 9       proposing that we adjourn for five to ten minutes.
10   (3.15 pm)
11                         (A short break)
12   (3.30 pm)
13   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Mr Powell, just on the point where we
14       adjourned, I was at that moment about to ask Miss Weekes
15       to lead the questions to you.  I will do so now,
16       Miss Weekes.
17                     Questions by MISS WEEKES
18   MISS WEEKES:  Thank you very much, good afternoon to you
19       all.  Can I go back to one of the most important
20       elements of our terms of reference, which is essentially
21       how the Metropolitan Police treat their own,
22       particularly in terms of complaints, discipline or
23       otherwise, and I would like to start with the Fairness
24       at Work new procedure which has been introduced into the
25       Met, and may well have been introduced
 
    43
 1       internationally -- I say internationally, but outside of
 2       the Met.
 3           I wondered what is the extent of the new Fairness at
 4       Work procedure?  Is it adopted elsewhere?
 5   MR POWELL:  I would say it is patchy, in respect of --
 6       nationally, in respect of how and when it has been
 7       adopted, and also, the degree at which it has been
 8       actually adopted in various forces.
 9           How it is working is a different matter.  I think it
10       is a little bit too early to actually say yet the
11       effectiveness of the system.  It is promising; we have
12       yet still to really assess it.  I do not know whether
13       Pat has had any dealings with it?
14   MS McLEOD:  No, not nationally.
15   MISS WEEKES:  Just for our information, where at least have
16       you seen it patchy, which areas, so we can at least make
17       some enquiries, if we need to?
18   MR POWELL:  Off the top of my head, I cannot really say, but
19       I will get back to you on that one.
20   MISS WEEKES:  That is fair.  What arises out of the ability
21       to resolve a dispute informally is the personality of
22       the person who is dealing with the dispute; do you
23       agree?
24   MR POWELL:  Yes.
25   MISS WEEKES:  A very helpful discussion was had with
 
    44
 1       an officer from ACAS this morning, who very kindly
 2       outlined to the panel what he considered to be the most
 3       important characteristics of someone who is successful
 4       at resolving disputes.  It includes judgment, integrity,
 5       independence, an ability to stand back from the baggage.
 6           Line managers within the Met are often accused of
 7       just failing completely to resolve disputes, not having
 8       any ability to resolve disputes; is that mirrored
 9       nationally?
10   MR POWELL:  Yes, I would certainly agree with that.  There
11       is an element within first and certainly second line
12       supervisors whereby they feel they are incapable of
13       managing the staff.  You know, I have heard this fear of
14       dealing with black staff mentioned, but I think in
15       reality, it is poor management.
16   MISS WEEKES:  Can I ask this: some people are good
17       operationally, and that is mirrored in every other walk
18       of life; some people simply are no good at personnel
19       issues, do you agree?
20   MR POWELL:  Yes, absolutely.
21   MISS WEEKES:  Why is it then that one expects officers of
22       a particular rank to line manage regardless of their
23       baggage, personality and inability?
24   MR POWELL:  Absolutely right.  You know, one day, you are
25       a police constable; the next day, you are a police
 
    45
 1       sergeant, and you are supposed to be a manager.  It does
 2       not work like that.  People take with them, like you
 3       say, their baggage, their values, their thinking
 4       processes, and they try to deal with issues carrying
 5       those values and making assumptions about people, about
 6       people of colour, in particular, about female staff;
 7       they make assumptions based upon their own past
 8       experiences.
 9           Now this is a problem within the police service, but
10       it does not only stop there as well, because we get to
11       this higher tier whereby there is an element of denial
12       by senior officers in respect of the performance of
13       their subordinates, because it does not affect them.
14       You know, the behaviour of an inspector or a sergeant
15       does not affect the superintendent.  So when we go and
16       make a complaint or a complaint is made, the assumption
17       is, "Well, it does not really affect me, so I am going
18       to stand by my subordinates, no matter what".
19           And this is a real problem within the police
20       service, I think, this element of denial until it
21       directly affects them personally, and then they seem to
22       sit up within the service.
23   MISS WEEKES:  Well, I am going to come to challenging the
24       hierarchy in a moment, because that is an aspect of your
25       very detailed submission that you have presented, and
 
    46
 1       I want to come back to that in particular.  But just
 2       sticking for a moment with line management, and I do so
 3       because it affects a very large number of police staff,
 4       as well as police officers -- there is a very large
 5       number of visible ethnic minorities who are police
 6       staff, but it affects white police staff as well, so
 7       this is a general question.
 8           Some would say it is not appropriate to withdraw
 9       someone from line managing if he or she proves it
10       abundantly clear that they cannot do it, with or without
11       training; would you agree with that?
12   MR POWELL:  Absolutely not.
13   MISS WEEKES:  Is it too radical a suggestion to say that
14       an option available within the Met is that when line
15       managers demonstrate they cannot do it, take away their
16       role of line management; is that too radical?
17   MR POWELL:  No, I agree.  That is obviously following
18       development protocols and areas for improvement, and if
19       after all that, that has failed to address the issue,
20       then rightly so.  It is a fundamental ability that first
21       and second line managers should have the ability to
22       manage people, and if they cannot do that, then they
23       should not be in the role that they are in.
24   MISS WEEKES:  Has that ever been suggested as a possible
25       reform, and is it likely to be taken up?  I am allowed
 
    47
 1       the luxury of being radical, but I do not have to put
 2       the thing into practice.
 3   MR POWELL:  I think it is workable.  I have never known of
 4       anybody being demoted or removed from a particular role
 5       purely because they cannot manage people.  If within
 6       that, their lack of management, they show discriminatory
 7       behaviour, then yes, it happens very rarely, but I do
 8       know of instances whereby, as a result of their lack of
 9       management and their inability to work with people and
10       to supervise people on a personal level, they have shown
11       discriminatory tendencies, racist tendencies in some
12       cases, then rightly so, they should be removed; if not,
13       dismissed from the service.
14   MISS WEEKES:  That is a very good example which might be
15       right to attract removal from the role, but is it not
16       equally important that if a line manager consistently
17       fails or refuses to promote an eligible candidate, that
18       is just as bad as discrimination, is it not?
19   MR POWELL:  Absolutely right, yes.  But what we have,
20       unfortunately, in the organisation is a
21       self-perpetuating culture whereby we have managers --
22       you have just got to look at the police in general, and
23       it is seen as a white, heterosexual, male-dominated
24       organisation.  You know, the people who are more likely
25       to get on are going to be white, heterosexual and male;
 
    48
 1       unless you make, as an individual, a value shift, go to
 2       that place that really does not suit you; why then
 3       should you have to do that?
 4           Is it not down to the organisation to move their
 5       goalposts to embrace other values of the multi-cultural
 6       society that we are supposed to be policing?
 7   MISS WEEKES:  That was my suggestion of an option available
 8       if line management does not operate because the fault is
 9       the line manager.  What are your suggestions, having
10       looked at various areas around the country, of how one
11       can improve, in general, the ability of line managers to
12       deal with personnel issues?  Nothing to do with
13       operational, they may be brilliant operationally, but to
14       deal with a dispute to stop it going to an ET.
15   MR POWELL:  I believe at first and second line supervisors
16       there is a reluctance to accept feedback; without
17       accepting this feedback, because of the organisation and
18       the way we are an autocratic organisation in many
19       respects, there is an inbuilt reluctance for managers to
20       openly welcome 360 degree feedback.  How can they be
21       expected to develop as individuals if they cannot accept
22       and receive this feedback?
23           Now in that respect, what I am going to suggest is
24       that why do not the first and second line supervisors --
25       like I have seen some really good practices in some
 
    49
 1       forces, whereby if they have an issue with a female
 2       member of staff, a black member of staff, and they are
 3       not sure that they are actually addressing this issue
 4       correctly, then they consult somebody, possibly somebody
 5       within the BPA, to say, "Well, am I being really unfair
 6       in dealing with this person in this particular way?  You
 7       know, am I really building upon my inbuilt beliefs and
 8       assumptions about people of that particular race or
 9       sex?"
10           And that has proved to be -- that is one example
11       where it has proved to be really successful --
12   MISS WEEKES:  Where has it proved to be successful?
13   MR POWELL:  Certainly within my own force, which is South
14       Yorkshire, whereby we get first and second line
15       supervisors possibly ringing myself up or other members
16       of the BPA and saying, "Look, I have got this black
17       colleague of yours on my shift, I do not feel like he is
18       performing or she is performing particularly well, would
19       you like to have a look at this, just to see that I am
20       not going down the wrong path?"
21           But the person consulting has got to be of the right
22       sort of calibre as well, obviously, to ensure that it is
23       not just a person who is going to rubber stamp the
24       issues concerned, but genuinely has to be open, has to
25       be honest, and have integrity when it comes to dealing
 
    50
 1       with that.
 2           That is one way possibly of steering first and
 3       second line supervisors, and saying, "Look, you can be
 4       confident in dealing with a person in this way", or,
 5       "No, you are going down the wrong path there, because
 6       what is your thinking process behind dealing with that
 7       particular sort of person?"  But that is just one
 8       possible example.
 9           More black supervisors would also help as well
10       within the police service, you know, more black
11       Federation reps; all these issues would actually help in
12       sort of facilitating the management of people at that
13       level, first and second line level, within the
14       organisation, and of course --
15   MISS WEEKES:  That, of course, anticipates that the black
16       supervisors themselves will be good at people
17       management.
18   MR POWELL:  Absolutely.
19   MISS WEEKES:  So just having more black supervisors may not
20       solve the problem, if they are equally as bad as the
21       white counterparts.
22   MR POWELL:  Absolutely, yes, I agree with that.
23   MISS WEEKES:  But in any event, I take on board the goodwill
24       behind your suggestion of more black supervisors; how?
25       How are we going to get more black supervisors?
 
    51
 1   MR POWELL:  That is a question that has been echoing
 2       throughout the police service for an awful long time.
 3       Again, I believe there are people who have got qualities
 4       within the police service to be better than what they
 5       are.  There is an inherent resistance, cultural
 6       resistance by managers, and like I mentioned previously,
 7       if you do not speak like them, if you do not look like
 8       them or play in the same golf club as them, then you are
 9       not going to get on within this particular service.
10       That has to be worked upon, and that has to be changed
11       in some way, shape or form.
12           You know, we are looking at getting, for example,
13       an independent member on promotion boards to look at the
14       high potential development scheme, for example.  I think
15       there are two or three, if that -- and I am sure David
16       can actually articulate that a little bit more than what
17       I can -- in respect of assessors upon that particular
18       board.
19           So there are some serious issues, cultural issues,
20       I would suggest, in respect of how the police service
21       manages both recruitment, promotion and retention issues
22       within the service.
23   MISS WEEKES:  Well, let us deal with -- moving away from
24       Fairness at Work, perhaps, and deal with promotion.  It
25       certainly has been identified by the female member of
 
    52
 1       your panel today, and it is generally a trend in
 2       employment law cases that has been identified in terms
 3       of race cases, and indeed gender; unfair decisions on
 4       promotion.
 5           What are your suggestions to us in terms of how we
 6       might assist by way of recommendations to improve the
 7       ability of the Met to seek out and find those, on merit,
 8       who should be promoted?  Because you cannot necessarily
 9       always wait for a very junior rank to put themselves
10       forward.  I mean, I shall come to self-help in a moment,
11       but what at the moment is being done, and what have you
12       done in your organisation, to improve the promotion
13       aspects for officers and staff?
14   MR POWELL:  Within the NBPA, we sit on a large number of
15       panels, boards and forums, and this is an issue that is
16       absolutely dear to our hearts.  Like I say, we, for
17       example, on the high potential development scheme, we
18       are looking at that right now.  On the last intake, we
19       had three or four members, I believe, go through this
20       particular scheme, and I think all of them, bar from
21       one, failed at stage three; I will just check that.
22       Yes, all of them, bar one, failed at stage three, and we
23       are now asking why.  We are demanding to know, you know,
24       why is this happening?
25           In fact, on this one, I will let David come in.
 
    53
 1   MISS WEEKES:  Absolutely, thank you.
 2   MR McFARLANE:  I was given the opportunity recently to see
 3       some documents regarding the high potential development
 4       scheme, as well as it has been observed by one of my
 5       colleagues from the Metropolitan Police BPA,
 6       Gareth Reid, who was here last week, and what we have
 7       discovered is there are three stages to this particular
 8       scheme; parts one and two are mainly a paper exercise,
 9       and part three is where the practical issues -- where
10       the actual assessors meet with the candidates.  And we
11       noticed that at part three, that is where they failed,
12       as mentioned earlier by my colleague.
13           We then looked at who was actually doing the
14       assessing, and we noticed that in a majority of the
15       cases, if not all, it is normally led by a white male,
16       rather than any person of colour, whether male or
17       female, and to me that suggests a situation that needs
18       to be addressed.
19           What we have done so far as an association is to
20       recommend to the HPD scheme members of the public who we
21       think will be very good assessors.  We have also
22       recommended senior black members of staff within the
23       police service to do so.  But the unfortunate situation
24       we have -- we do not have many ACPO rank black staff, so
25       there are very few to choose from, and the ones who we
 
    54
 1       have asked, who kindly volunteered, I understand have
 2       now been trained, and hopefully will get through the
 3       system.
 4           Having spoken with the staff who have failed
 5       themselves, we have had very angry telephone calls and
 6       correspondences, because they have worked very hard to
 7       get on to this scheme, and think they have done pretty
 8       well to get through, but, of course, when they face
 9       a panel which is totally no reflection of themselves,
10       and trying to explain some of the things that they have
11       done to help for leadership which could not be
12       understood, if you like, by the panel, then that seemed
13       to create another problem in itself.
14           So there are some matters in that respect that we
15       need to address and to look at.
16   MR POWELL:  I will just come back on that as well: as
17       an association, we instigated what is called the
18       personal leadership programme for the development of
19       black staff nationally as well.  This is a programme
20       about empowerment, recognising that there are issues in
21       respect of a glass ceiling/sticky floor within the
22       association; you know, we decided to go out and look at
23       a programme that will help our people realise their own
24       potential and get through -- you know, help them through
25       these particular issues, which is proving to be
 
    55
 1       reasonably successful.  They are empowered and they are
 2       making moves, if not hierarchically, then certainly
 3       laterally as well within the organisation.
 4   MISS WEEKES:  Just one final point on the important matters
 5       you flagged up on the high potential development scheme
 6       and the assessment and type of forms.  I know that
 7       Superintendent Ali Dizaei did some work on analysing
 8       forms and the way assessments are carried out for
 9       various ranks.
10           Across the board, are you content and happy that the
11       sorts of assessments and performance criteria that are
12       adopted by the Met are fair in diversity terms across
13       the board, ie that they are not acting
14       disproportionately against women and/or visible ethnic
15       minorities?
16   MR POWELL:  I cannot really speak for the Met, but I am
17       assuming that they are going to be similar elsewhere in
18       the country.  I think as a service, we need to review
19       that particular criteria.  Certainly looking at the
20       national recruitment centres, for example, and I know
21       people who actually sit on these panels, and they ask
22       questions in a particular way; the same question to
23       everybody who walks through that door.  How fair is
24       this -- you know, they are assuming a level of
25       understanding here about people walking through that
 
    56
 1       door, which is not necessarily correct.
 2           As a result of that, I have known people who have
 3       struggled, who have had to -- who have asked for people
 4       to rephrase the questions, and they have not been
 5       rephrased in a way that caters for their understanding
 6       or level of the English language.
 7           So therefore, these people fail instantly, when in
 8       reality, they could make very, very good police officers
 9       or police staff, so this is a national issue, and this
10       is of national concern, but it does not only stop at
11       national recruitment centres.  I would suggest that this
12       is sort of endemic throughout most of the police
13       service.
14   MISS WEEKES:  How important a criteria is the English
15       language in policing?  Most people, no doubt, can make
16       themselves understood in an operational arrest type
17       situation, but I have not myself studied the forms as
18       yet; how important is it?
19   MR POWELL:  I do not think it is critically important.
20       Again, it is part of development.  I have known people
21       who have been born in this particular country who have
22       not got a great command of the English language.  You
23       know, it is about communication, it is about effective
24       communication.  If you can communicate effectively,
25       I think the use of the language can be acceptable.
 
    57
 1           I have known instances and cases where our
 2       colleagues have received bad appraisals, poor
 3       appraisals, because they speak with an accent, believe
 4       it or not.  You know, that does happen, "Sorry, this
 5       person cannot communicate well, purely because he speaks
 6       with an accent".
 7   MISS WEEKES:  Well, I am sure you would have challenged that
 8       sort of decision.  Have you challenged it, and what is
 9       the result?
10   MR POWELL:  Yes, I would challenge that, but when you look
11       at the people that it is aimed at, possibly
12       probationers, who want to get on within the police
13       service, who feel that if they were to challenge
14       everything that the supervisors were to say, then, you
15       know, what is going to be the likelihood of them
16       succeeding to get through their probation?  So there is
17       an added pressure.
18           What a lot of our people do is to basically accept
19       that and live with it, just for a quiet life, just to
20       get on.  But the point I am making to the board is the
21       fact that that sort of thing does actually happen within
22       the police service, but it also goes undetected, and
23       often, when that sort of issue does arise, people fight
24       back.  We have had colleagues that fight back.  They try
25       everything, everything possible to try to resolve these
 
    58
 1       issues at first and second line supervisory level.
 2           They may go years -- I know of cases where people
 3       have gone four or five years challenging issues, they
 4       have had apologies, they have had everything, and it is
 5       not until it gets to breaking point that they actually
 6       decide that they are going to run an ET.
 7           We have had people crying on the phone, people phone
 8       up in tears, wanting to commit suicide, we had a phone
 9       call today from somebody saying that they are actually
10       going to commit suicide.  They are outside the police
11       station now, they are going to cut their wrists.  There
12       are issues out there that really do need addressing.
13   MISS WEEKES:  Someone, I am not sure which of you, mentioned
14       sanctions; there is a degree of feeling, we gather, that
15       certain actions go unchallenged, go unsorted.  Sanctions
16       often carry with it a confrontational aspect and not
17       resolution.  When you say "sanctions", what do you mean,
18       and for what type of conduct would you recommend
19       sanctions?
20   MR POWELL:  I think "sanctions" is a word that I see as
21       being inclusive of a resolution to some respects.
22       However, I agree with the point, you can have
23       a resolution without sanctions, but what we have to look
24       at is how impactive is that resolution going to be if
25       there are not sanctions in place for wrongdoings?
 
    59
 1           When I mentioned sanctions, you know, I mean visible
 2       sanctions; all too often within the police service, as
 3       has happened within certain high-profile cases, where
 4       people have been responsible for the overt persistent
 5       investigation of black staff to a degree that it has
 6       actually ground them to a halt, relentlessly, and there
 7       has been no sanctions; on the contrary, the majority of
 8       the examples that I can quote, people have actually been
 9       promoted, people have actually gone on to better things.
10           What message does this send out to the poor victim
11       who is still suspended, and still has a pending
12       employment tribunal there?  What message does this send
13       out, when you see people rising through the ranks who
14       have actually started or initiated these proceedings,
15       and made life hell?
16   MISS WEEKES:  We know that in your submissions you mentioned
17       quite extensively Operation Helios, which we are not
18       dealing with today, but I just wonder nationally round
19       the country -- we are rather clouded living in London,
20       we know only of our high-profile cases, but what is the
21       extent of that kind of behaviour nationally?
22   MR POWELL:  I would suggest very extensive, more so -- you
23       are more likely to see that sort of behaviour in your
24       county forces, because of the fact that there is a lack
25       of support, lack of visible minority ethnic people, so
 
    60
 1       we see this on a regular basis, we have phone calls into
 2       the office on a regular basis describing this.  I can
 3       quote you cases from quite a few of the forces in the
 4       country.  But in line with that, there is also
 5       a resistance, a reluctance, and I can quote to you
 6       a letter I received today, to actually try to get these
 7       issues resolved.
 8           You know, we put our hand out to say: look, we
 9       realise that this is happening, we disagree with it, you
10       know, but however, having said that, we would like to
11       try to actually resolve this issue between ourselves,
12       look at the learning that can come from this, and try to
13       come to a resolution before it goes to ET.
14           The letter I got back today from a particular force
15       was, "I am sorry, I have taken legal advice and this is
16       going to a full ET and I am not prepared to discuss this
17       case with you".  You know, it begs the question: well,
18       why?  Why is this happening?  I know for a fact that
19       this particular person had had no involvement at all
20       with the issues.  It just gets very, very frustrating
21       for our people.
22           So when Helios raised its head, just for its
23       profile, this echoed around the country.  People
24       realised, "Wow, it is not just happening to me, but it
25       is happening in London, and this is a high-profile
 
    61
 1       case", and that is why people actually got behind
 2       Superintendent Ali Dizaei, because they were also
 3       feeling the pain of being persistently hounded,
 4       persistently investigated, having their time cards
 5       pulled as soon as they lodge an employment tribunal,
 6       having -- you know, being followed in some instances.
 7       The list actually goes on, it really does.
 8   MISS WEEKES:  But I think as my colleague Sir Anthony said,
 9       you have agreed that the Taylor Review and
10       recommendations should go some way to remedy some of
11       those wrongs.
12   MR POWELL:  It should, but I am not holding my breath, for
13       want of a better phrase.
14   MISS WEEKES:  This leads me conveniently to challenging the
15       hierarchy: what is clear to me, and undoubtedly to my
16       colleagues on the panel, is that when you complain or
17       when you constructively present criticism, you might be
18       marked, and you may be sidelined, whether it be
19       promotion or otherwise; is that a trend nationally?
20   MR POWELL:  Yes, absolutely.  Certainly if you declare
21       yourself to be a member of the BPA, very similar to the
22       issues that Pat actually outlined earlier, as soon as
23       you raise your head above that parapet, then you are
24       a target.  You are looked upon differently, you are
25       treated differently.  You know, people make assumptions
 
    62
 1       about you.  And in reality, what we want is to develop
 2       and build the organisation.
 3           So there is an element of misperceptions and
 4       communication here, but the organisation is reluctant to
 5       sort of facilitate -- it is usually down to the
 6       individuals to actually work on that themselves, but by
 7       the time they actually get round to working on it, it is
 8       usually too late, and promotion has gone by the board.
 9   MISS WEEKES:  In legal terms, of course, that is a subtle
10       form of victimisation.
11   MR POWELL:  Absolutely.
12   MISS WEEKES:  Can I ask you this: what are the practical
13       ways forward for allowing those who wish to raise
14       complaints that they can continue to do so?  Because one
15       cannot have such a large public organisation who is
16       accountable to the public with very many unhappy people
17       within it who are not allowed an outlet to speak; so
18       what is the way forward about allowing people to speak
19       without fear of reprisals or a negative approach?
20   MR POWELL:  I feel it is about, again, valuing people,
21       valuing their contributions, being proactive at all
22       levels, at all ranks, in promoting race and diversity
23       issues.  It is more than just being there, it is
24       actually being seen to be doing something, and this goes
25       through all the ranks.  It is encouraging an environment
 
    63
 1       that sends the message out, "Look, we are inclusive, and
 2       we value this person and their contribution".
 3           Right now, this does not happen everywhere.  There
 4       are still forces around the country that do not have --
 5       where the black police associations do not have a voice,
 6       do not have a say.  It may be one person that they pluck
 7       to rubber stamp certain issues, but it is not genuine
 8       consultation.
 9           If that can be seen to be done, if that can be seen
10       to be done right up to the level of Chief Constable, and
11       the staff are aware of this, then possibly, it may give
12       people the confidence to come forward.  But it is not
13       only about the confidence of black staff, it is about
14       the confidence of everybody to come forward and to
15       develop the organisation so that it can be a fair and
16       equitable one.
17   MISS WEEKES:  I just have three other smallish points.  The
18       hierarchy: it is clear to anyone within about a week of
19       reading this material that rank is extremely important
20       within the Met, and whilst it is clearly helpful and
21       important for operational reasons, it has its
22       disadvantages in terms of personnel and HR issues.
23   MR POWELL:  Yes.
24   MISS WEEKES:  I would like your help on how one can break
25       down the ranks when it comes to dealing with personnel
 
    64
 1       issues that affect everybody, including the
 2       superintendent ranks.
 3   MR POWELL:  That is very difficult.  I think the perception
 4       that rank is important, and in some circumstances it is,
 5       can only be excluded if the person concerned
 6       acknowledges that, and behaves accordingly.  You know,
 7       we can all sit round the table and take our epaulettes
 8       off, but the subsequent behaviour, if that is consistent
 9       with rank, then what is the point?  So it is down to
10       behaviour, and also education; how do they behave?  It
11       is down to them taking responsibility as well, and I do
12       not mean taking blame, it is down to how they actually
13       respond accordingly.  That does not happen right now.
14   MISS WEEKES:  Some may say that your organisation, who are
15       clearly taking a number of initiatives to help
16       yourselves, could do with a little help from the senior
17       ranks.  Do you have good people in the senior ranks that
18       you can turn to?
19   MR POWELL:  We have some very good people in the senior
20       ranks, yes, without a doubt.
21   MISS WEEKES:  Do you have visible ethnic minorities in these
22       senior ranks that you can turn to?
23   MR POWELL:  Yes.
24   MISS WEEKES:  Are they sufficient in number to deal with
25       those in the senior ranks who clearly do not assist your
 
    65
 1       programme?
 2   MR POWELL:  Simply, I would suggest, no.
 3   MISS WEEKES:  Is that the root of the problem?
 4   MR POWELL:  That may be the root of the problem, in the
 5       sense that we have people -- we have some very, very
 6       good people at senior ranks that we can turn to and call
 7       upon.  Do not get me wrong, we also have people whom --
 8       and I am talking in the wider perspective here, not only
 9       police officers but police staff as well, who are high
10       up the ranks, who, for want of a better phrase, pull the
11       ladder up as well, and are reluctant to be involved for
12       fear of being tarnished with the NBPA, because the focus
13       may be on progression, and we acknowledge that.
14           However, we do have some very, very good people out
15       there, but when you look at the people at the ACPO rank,
16       for example, we have got a handful -- well, not even
17       a handful of officers there.  You know, how effective
18       and how impactive are these people going to be in
19       changing the assumptions and views of people of that
20       sort of rank?  I do not know whether David wants to come
21       in on this.
22   MISS WEEKES:  I will just ask this question, as it is in my
23       head: does the Commissioner know and understand that
24       whilst he drives forward a very high-profile diversity
25       programme, people shy away from ringing up the Black
 
    66
 1       Police Association because it might taint their chances
 2       of promotion?  Does the Commissioner know about that
 3       dilemma, and what has been done about it?
 4   MR McFARLANE:  I certainly cannot speak on behalf of the
 5       Commissioner, I would not attempt to.  But sort of
 6       linking your previous question with this one, it is not
 7       unusual for senior black staff, as I said, not to get in
 8       touch or not to work with us overtly on some of the
 9       issues that we are addressing; as was said before, in
10       case of fear.
11           It is almost that they are given an option, "Either
12       you want to be black or you want to get promoted".  I do
13       not think that is fair, and I do not think it is right,
14       and this is something that needs to be addressed.
15           The other situation in terms of talking about the
16       diversity programmes, a lot of some of these programmes
17       that have been developed by forces have not, if you
18       like, had the tacit agreement of some of the
19       associations.  It is like a group gone out there and
20       seek consultation and developed it, and staff do not
21       recognise what they are saying.
22           Many times, we are saying, if you want to have
23       success in terms of diversity, you have to speak to the
24       people who it affects.  We are the ones who are talking
25       about the changes that we want.  If you are not prepared
 
    67
 1       to listen to us but you develop your own programme, do
 2       not expect that we are going to go along with it; so
 3       that is where difficulties are.
 4           But certainly I feel that if people are not given
 5       the option of whether you want to remain black, or
 6       a person of colour, or get promoted, I think we would
 7       have a lot more people going through the ranks and be
 8       very proud of being associated with their colleagues.
 9       Thank you.
10   MISS WEEKES:  We know again from a number of the
11       high-profile cases, and this goes back to how the Met
12       treats its own, that the press and press reporting can
13       be even more damaging than the actual allegations or
14       complaints themselves; Virdi is an example of that, how
15       he was treated in relation to the press, and there are
16       a number of others.
17           Has that now improved nationally?  Is there a proper
18       protocol in place to protect any officer, black or
19       white, who may have a complaint or allegation against
20       them?
21   MR POWELL:  My experience suggests not, that still is not in
22       place, you know, the press will seek to use the best
23       line possible in order to get the papers sold.
24   MISS WEEKES:  Of course, they are allowed to do that, are
25       they not?
 
    68
 1   MR POWELL:  Absolutely.
 2   MISS WEEKES:  But who feeds them the information?
 3   MR POWELL:  I am just coming to that very question, but you
 4       also need to look at who feeds them this information; as
 5       in the Ali Dizaei issue, it was quite clear that that
 6       information was released from a number of departments
 7       within the Metropolitan Police Service to the press, you
 8       know, the same day that he was served papers, before he
 9       even knew about this, there were press people outside
10       his home address; how did they get that particular
11       information?
12           So I think we must examine the relationship between
13       the police service, their individual press departments,
14       and also the media as well, in order to -- because what
15       they try to do is to maximise the impact, and also
16       justify their actions against black staff, by
17       pre-empting and pre-warning the media, so as to have the
18       upper hand.
19   MISS WEEKES:  But how much, as it were, effect would
20       an organisation like yours have with press departments
21       of forces?  Because that is really what we are concerned
22       about.  One cannot control broadsheets and newspapers.
23   MR POWELL:  No, that is right, you have to look at where the
24       control is.  The bottom line is that the organisation
25       has control of their own press departments.  If they are
 
    69
 1       intent on doing something, then they will do it.
 2   MISS WEEKES:  One final question from me: if there was one
 3       burning recommendation or consideration that you would
 4       like us to bear in mind when dealing with line managers
 5       and personnel issues, and dealing with all sorts of
 6       people, what would it be?
 7   MR POWELL:  I would like to see more involvement from
 8       a local BPA level in decisions involving staff, when
 9       appropriate and if appropriate, and by the right people,
10       so that we can get a measure of the sort of balance
11       there, the proportionality involved, and identify that
12       before it gets out of hand.
13   MISS WEEKES:  Thank you very much.
14   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Thank you.  Mr Powell, that brings us
15       to the end of the questions which my colleagues and
16       I wanted to put to you.  But before I move to my closing
17       words, I think I just wanted to emphasise again a point
18       I made earlier about the importance of an evidence-based
19       approach, because that is the basis, and the only basis,
20       on which this panel can operate.  So the more hard,
21       firm, clear evidence you are able to offer us, the
22       easier you make our task.
23           You will recall I made some reference to issues
24       around employment tribunals, the concept of the
25       directorate of professional standards and the CPA, when
 
    70
 1       it existed, in relation to proportionality of treatment,
 2       because the picture that you were offering was that it
 3       is a national picture, which more or less mirrors the
 4       Met.
 5           I take no issue there; we are very neutral on the
 6       point until we can see some very hard and clear
 7       evidence.  We have also just heard that black staff have
 8       a choice, "Be black or be promoted"; again, I do not
 9       make a comment, or take an issue, except that we need to
10       see some evidence.  The perception might even be greater
11       than the reality, but in the end, it is the reality that
12       gets measured and not the perception.
13           That said, let me thank you and your colleagues very
14       much indeed for offering us the contribution that you
15       have this afternoon.  We have finished the questions
16       that we wanted to ask you, but you will recall that in
17       my opening statement, I said that at the end of our
18       questions, we would offer you the opportunity to make
19       a closing statement, a short one, if you wanted to take
20       advantage of that.  If you do, now is your time.
21   MR POWELL:  I would just like to say that to get to this
22       stage has taken a lot of pain from a lot of people.
23       A lot of people have suffered in order to get to this
24       stage within the hearings; myself, certainly Ali Dizaei,
25       and others as well, and it has taken a lot of time.  We
 
    71
 1       really do want to see this process work, and we will
 2       assist in any way, shape or form in order to sort of
 3       advise you, if necessary, in the future, in respect of
 4       any recommendations that you may deem fit to actually
 5       publish.
 6           So, you know, we do want to make a difference, and
 7       we want to have an impact, a shared destiny, and also
 8       a common purpose and a common sense of mission.
 9           Just for the record, our aim as an association is
10       not to defeat or humiliate the police service, but to
11       win its friendship and understanding.  We want to see
12       a service and a community at peace with themselves, and
13       a society that can live with its conscience, in essence.
14       So it is about fairness and about integrity; no matter
15       what colour you are, it is about doing the right thing.
16       Thank you.
17   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Thank you very much.  Let me offer you
18       my final formal words, and that is to say that as with
19       all our witnesses, it may be that when we have heard
20       from others, we may well want to ask you some more
21       questions, either in writing, or ask you to come back to
22       a similar type of oral hearing such as we have
23       experienced this afternoon.
24           If we do decide to do so, then naturally we will
25       want to do it in a way which affords the least possible
 
    72
 1       degree of inconvenience to you, your colleagues and your
 2       organisation.
 3           That said, all that I wish to do on behalf of my
 4       colleagues and myself is to thank you for your response
 5       this afternoon, thank you for your written submissions,
 6       and thank you for the overall contribution that you and
 7       your organisation is making to our Inquiry.  Thank you
 8       all very much.
 9   MR POWELL:  Thank you very much.
10   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  We will adjourn for about five minutes
11       or so.
12   (4.20 pm)
13                         (A short break)
14   (4.25 pm)