21 MR KASHMIRA SINGH MANN 22 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Mr Singh, can I thank you first of all 23 very much indeed for accepting our invitation to attend 24 the Inquiry, and for giving some evidence and letting us 25 have your written submissions; we are truly grateful for 52 1 that. Can I say that I do appreciate that for some of 2 our witnesses, any process of this nature might seem 3 somewhat daunting, so I thought it would be helpful if 4 I set out briefly how we propose to conduct the hearing 5 this afternoon. 6 But first, let me introduce myself and the other 7 members of the panel. My name is Bill Morris, and I am 8 the recently retired General Secretary of the Transport 9 and General Workers Union. On my immediate right, I have 10 Sir Anthony Burden, recently retired Chief Constable of 11 South Wales Constabulary, after a very long and 12 distinguished service in the police service; and on my 13 left, I have Miss Anesta Weekes QC. She is an eminent 14 barrister who sits as a recorder and part-time 15 chairperson of employment tribunals. She was also 16 counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry. 17 As you know, we have been tasked by the Metropolitan 18 Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into 19 professional standards and employment matters in the 20 MPS. I say again that our focus is the MPS as 21 an organisation, and not the individuals who make up the 22 organisation. Our approach in conducting this inquiry 23 is an inquisitorial one and not an adversarial one in 24 any character or indeed nature. 25 We are keen to enquire into the issues raised by our 53 1 terms of reference, so that we can make the appropriate 2 recommendation for further good practice, rather than 3 concentrating on making criticisms of the MPS or the 4 individuals. 5 To help us in our task, we are keen to hear from all 6 our witnesses not just what is wrong with the Met but 7 equally what is right; most importantly, we are looking 8 for any suggestions about how matters can be made 9 better. 10 I think it is fair that I should say that 11 a transcript is being taken of all the witnesses' 12 evidence. This will be posted on our website later 13 today, to ensure that we have an accurate and proper 14 record of the proceedings. 15 At the end of these introductory remarks, I will 16 lead in one or two questions to you, followed by my 17 colleagues, Miss Weekes first, and followed by 18 Sir Anthony, and any supplementary questions that 19 I might find necessary. At the conclusion of our 20 questions, I will offer you the opportunity for a brief 21 closing statement if you so wish. 22 In your written submissions which will be posted on 23 our website, you have given us some very clear and 24 specific indications about your organisation. We would 25 like to ask you questions and seek your views on those 54 1 matters and others which are of interest to us. 2 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: For the benefit of the transcript, 3 I wonder if you would, right at the start, formally 4 introduce yourself to the Inquiry. 5 MR MANN: My name is Kashmira Singh Mann. I am, like 6 yourself, a retired chairperson of the Metropolitan Sikh 7 Association. My three year tenure ended on Friday, but 8 this is something I started before that, and I am here 9 with the consent of the current chairman, Mr Raj Kohli. 10 I must say thank you very much inviting us, but I do 11 not think we did this Inquiry justice, because we did 12 not have the chance to devote as much time as we wanted 13 to, because we are all operational police officers. It 14 is something like Bob Pull said earlier on, it is 15 something we do in our own time. 16 We do lots and lots of things in our own time, and 17 one of the main things we do is look after the welfare 18 of our members. Something I just remember last night, 19 just as I sat down to dinner, I had a phone call from 20 a member of ours who needed our assistance, and as soon 21 as the phone call came, my wife picked up the dinner and 22 put it in the microwave, knowing I would not be eating 23 it for a couple of hours! 24 As I said, I spent about two hours last night 25 looking after him, and as a result, he is going back to 55 1 work on Thursday. He did not want to. He did not want 2 to go back at all, because he feared for his safety, 3 sanity, whatever; but he is going back to work now, on 4 Thursday. 5 So we prefer to devote our time for that, and as 6 worthy as these reports are, we found our time was very 7 limited. 8 We did not exactly come with any recommendations for 9 your Inquiry, but we thought it was best if we gave our 10 experiences, our observations to you, and that is what 11 we did in there. I chose just one case, because 12 repetition is pointless, but there could have been half 13 a dozen cases. 14 If you like, I would like to start off with how we 15 were formed, and then go on to what we do, if that is 16 acceptable. 17 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS 18 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Can I just say that by way of 19 introduction, and thank you for the introduction, and 20 welcome to retirement, as they say, I know that you have 21 read our terms of reference, and no doubt you and your 22 colleagues will have followed the progress of our 23 Inquiry. 24 With this in mind, and taking account of your 25 association's particular concerns, and you have 56 1 indicated that it is indicative rather than definitive 2 in itself. I wonder whether you would mind setting out 3 what your association thinks is the most important thing 4 that our Inquiry needs to learn by way of lessons from 5 the experience of your members. 6 MR MANN: First of all, I want to start off by saying two 7 simple lines, in that I am proud to be 8 a Metropolitan Police officer, as well as I am proud to 9 be a Sikh, and the two are compatible. 10 Despite all our criticism, we must remember that, 11 and it is something which Bob Pull said, we want to make 12 the police service even better. 13 Our experiences are that a lot of -- I will confine 14 myself to Sikh officers, because that is where the 15 majority of our workload is; they have been 16 disproportionately picked upon, discriminated against, 17 and basically victimised by a small -- how small it is, 18 I do not know, but a small group of white officers; and 19 that has got to stop. 20 I am not talking about processes. As I say, you can 21 have the most perfect discipline process, but if it is 22 actually administered by racist officers, by bullies, it 23 will not work. 24 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: You have echoed a sort of quality of 25 evidence which we have received elsewhere. One of the 57 1 intriguing points in my mind, and I will put it as 2 a question, where you talk about being bullied and 3 discriminated against and undervalued, at what level 4 does this expression of misbehaviour take place? What 5 level? 6 MR MANN: We are talking about grass roots; we are talking 7 about PCs, sergeants, inspectors and chief inspectors. 8 Above that, a lot of our members do not have contact 9 with officers above that, and also on a personal level, 10 I have had a lot of contact with people above commander 11 levels, and they seem to be on a different level; very, 12 very little discrimination. They seem to be more 13 enlightened than the grass roots. 14 The message of diversity, all the training and 15 everything else, has not fed down to grass roots; even 16 down to inspector level, inspector and sergeant levels 17 especially. That is where people have power, that is 18 where people feel they can abuse other people and 19 discriminate against them. If you want, I can give you 20 loads of examples, you know. 21 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: When these acts of unacceptable 22 treatment takes place, and it is reported, I am assuming 23 it is reported, what happens? Take us through the 24 process of what happens. 25 MR MANN: Well, it is like lots of offences, people put up 58 1 with quite a large number of incidents before they 2 actually do anything. It is the drip drip drip effect. 3 There will come a point where they say, "Enough is 4 enough", and then they will come forward and tell us 5 what is happening. 6 Then hopefully we will take it forward, we will 7 confront the line managers, but again, lots of other 8 mechanisms come into play. They are, for example, sent 9 to Coventry, radio messages are ignored. I have had one 10 officer who was actually a witness, rather than the 11 complainant, who would never ever again come forward as 12 a witness or a complainant, because on two occasions, he 13 put up urgent assistances and he was ignored. It was 14 actually a neighbouring police station, officers from 15 that neighbouring station came to his assistance. He 16 was beaten up, but how do you prove that somebody did 17 not hear a radio call? Very difficult. 18 Once they come forward, as has been said before, 19 people enter into a bunker mentality, and people did not 20 hear anything, did not see anything; again, going back 21 to the incident where this officer was a witness, the 22 victim was a black officer who was racially abused. 23 This Asian officer, this Sikh officer, heard it and 24 quite bravely came forward to give evidence, but there 25 was about six to eight other white officers; not one of 59 1 them heard any of this racial abuse. Why? Do they have 2 hearing defects? 3 So they have isolated any witnesses -- or 4 complainants are isolated from the rest of the team, and 5 this feeling carries on, when people apply for -- making 6 applications for promotion or for transfers, and people 7 are turned down. There may be a very good reason why 8 they are turned down, but the feeling ensues that it was 9 because they were whistle blowers, they were 10 complainants, they were the witnesses who stood against 11 the majority officers. 12 People are very, very reluctant to complain. I know 13 there is a perception amongst white officers that people 14 complain about racism at the drop of a hat; that is the 15 last thing anybody wants to do. People are very, very 16 reluctant, because they are effectively putting their 17 careers on freeze for three to five years. The length 18 of time it takes to investigate a complaint about what 19 somebody has said, maybe two or three sentences, can -- 20 on the occasion I am thinking of, it took 20 months. In 21 that time, the officer was almost suffering from 22 depression; was inefficient, ineffective, and as 23 a result, the MPS suffered. 24 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: There is a sort of acceptance within 25 the MPS that diversity is the watchword. Can you give 60 1 us some examples how your members have benefitted from 2 the MPS's policy on diversity? 3 MR MANN: This example may seem quite trivial to people who 4 do not understand it, but in my first month as chair, we 5 approached the Commissioner, Sir John, and at a meeting, 6 we told him about a problem which we had actually sent 7 a report on ten months before. 8 As far as I was aware, that report was bouncing from 9 one department to another, and that problem was solved 10 in a five minute conversation with the Commissioner. As 11 I said, it may seem trivial; it was to do with wearing 12 of badges and bands, chequered bands on turbans. It was 13 enforced. Some officers did wear them and some did not. 14 There are practical and religious issues on this. 15 Depending on who the line manager was, you could be 16 disciplined for not wearing it, and that was 17 unacceptable. As I said, I surveyed all the Sikh 18 officers and I did a presentation -- sorry, I did a 19 report to the MPS: got nowhere. In a five minute 20 conversation with Sir John, he said -- actually, 21 I remember telling him about it, and for about a whole 22 minute he went quiet, and after a minute, he said, "You 23 do not have to wear them". Just like that. He made 24 a decision. 25 His reason was actually slightly different from 61 1 ours, but it was something which had an enormous 2 positive effect across the community. And actually 3 still, three years later, it is still drawing favourable 4 comments in Canada and America amongst the Sikh 5 community, because they are having problems on these 6 issues. So that was a very, very positive thing he did. 7 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Can you let us have your personal 8 views or your organisation's views on the new Fairness 9 at Work policy? 10 MR MANN: Yes, it is bedding down. It is not as effective 11 as the previous grievance procedures, and there seems to 12 be a very woolly process. I do not think a lot of 13 people understand it, and also the number of Fairness at 14 Work co-ordinators is very limited, and the choice is 15 limited. If you have a perception that that person, the 16 Fairness at Work co-ordinator, is actually allied with 17 the management or a particular part of the station, that 18 is a bit hard for you to go to another Fairness at Work 19 co-ordinator. 20 One of our welfare cases, he actually did not want 21 that co-ordinator, but that is the one he was given. He 22 had to fight to get another Fairness at Work 23 co-ordinator. It should not be that way. It is early 24 stages, so we are sort of keeping our mind open on this. 25 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: You want free choice? 62 1 MR MANN: Yes. 2 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Just a final question; I said earlier 3 that we are interested about -- not just about what is 4 wrong, but equally, what is right; also, what needs to 5 be done to make things better. What advice and guidance 6 can you offer us that would make a difference to 7 improving things within the Metropolitan Police Service? 8 MR MANN: One of, in fact, the first long-term objectives 9 which we set ourselves was to improve recruitment of 10 minority group officers into the MPS. At the moment, 11 I think we have about 1,600 or 1,700 minority officers 12 out of 30,000-odd. 13 I just wonder how many of these problems we face 14 would disappear if, say, 10,000 of those 30,000 officers 15 were from minority groups, from the communities they 16 serve. I suspect a lot of the problems would disappear, 17 and certainly a lot of the problems would reduce in 18 size, because there would be that much more 19 understanding of the communities they are trying to 20 serve, and that, as I say, is one of our long-term 21 objectives within the MPSA. 22 The other thing is, from the Commissioner down to 23 about commander level, I do sense that from the majority 24 of the officers I have met, there is a sense of 25 learning, a sense of listening. But below that, 63 1 especially from superintendent level below, there is not 2 that listening. They do not want to learn. I think 3 Bob Pull gave the example -- I am sorry, I think 4 Mr Cameron gave the example about diversity training 5 being one of the hardest jobs he has ever done. 6 I remember on my CRR training in the first half an 7 hour, I could not bite my tongue, I could not just stand 8 by and let some things go unchallenged, and because 9 I challenged them, the atmosphere changed. There was 10 sort of polarisation of the people who wanted to learn, 11 and the people who knew it all, had seen it all, had 12 done it all, who did not want to be there, and you could 13 see that. It is not working. Training is good, but it 14 is not the answer; it is not the be all and end all. 15 You need people to set examples. 16 It was said earlier role models; yes, role models. 17 Before about 1999, the perception was always that you 18 should say and do anything you want, and nothing will 19 happen, nothing will change. Yes, mistakes are still 20 being made, but the perception amongst our association 21 is at least they are trying to learn, the majority are. 22 They are trying to listen, but only at the top level; 23 not middle level, or lower level. 24 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you very much. I would invite 25 Miss Weekes to ask some questions of you. 64 1 Questions by MISS WEEKES 2 MISS WEEKES: Thank you. Can I go back to recruitment? 3 Because you have mentioned that as being one of the 4 long-term ambitions of your organisation. What steps so 5 far have your organisation taken which you would say 6 have made a difference? 7 MR MANN: Two years ago, we started -- well, nearly three 8 years ago, we started taking part in recruitment drives 9 on an individual basis, ie by ourselves, we would visit 10 the temples, the gurdwaras and talk to youngsters and 11 try and encourage people to join the police service. As 12 I said, I am proud to be a police officer, and I want 13 more of us to be here. 14 On the other side, we had the Positive Action Team. 15 They held their own recruitment drives, and we had our 16 own recruitment drives, and we did not used to meet each 17 other. I noticed that when we set up a stand, the 18 youngsters or whoever would come along and they would 19 spend 20 minutes, half an hour, 45 minutes with us. 20 They would ask the questions they could not ask anybody 21 else. 22 When they went to the Positive Action Team fair or 23 stand, they would go along and politely pick up the 24 leaflets, maybe ask one or two questions, and their 25 stays used to last about two to three minutes. But with 65 1 us, it used to last half an hour, 45 minutes, even 2 longer. As I said, we could actually give them first 3 hand experiences; good, bad, warts and all, but first 4 hand experiences of our time in the police service, and 5 they valued that. 6 I think it was late in 2002 that we did start 7 working together with the Positive Action Team, but 8 unfortunately, that has fallen by the wayside, which is 9 because of the freeze at the moment. That is something 10 I think we can work on in the future: the Positive 11 Action Team and the staff associations. 12 I know the problems a Sikh officer will face in the 13 police service. A white officer will never know what 14 problems they face. I use the analogy that no matter 15 how hard I try, I will never know what it feels like to 16 be a pregnant woman; only my wife can do that. No 17 matter how sympathetic or empathetic I am, I will never 18 know, or at least another woman can tell you that. 19 Likewise, a Sikh officer can tell you the problems he or 20 she is going to face, and a Christian officer, a Jewish, 21 a Muslim, everybody else like that. 22 MISS WEEKES: Has that effort, do you think, improved 23 recruitment? 24 MR MANN: Yes, it has. In the last year or so, the last 25 four years, we have almost doubled our quota of Sikh 66 1 officers. But the freeze has come in now, and there has 2 been a halt. The problem with the police service or 3 police career is it is something you come to at a 4 crossroads in your life. 5 It is not something you say, well, okay, next week 6 I will think about being a police officer. People have 7 their lives, and if they are thinking of changing their 8 career, they come to the police service and they want to 9 apply, but if they are told they have to wait a year 10 before they can even apply, let alone actually fill the 11 application form in, they are going to go elsewhere, 12 they are going to pursue their career elsewhere and 13 carry on with their lives. 14 They may never come back to the police service, in 15 which case, that is a loss. That does not have such 16 a bad effect on majority officers, on the white 17 officers, because it is such a large pool. But for 18 minority officers, it does have an adverse effect, and 19 that is something we would like to address. 20 We have actually addressed it with the Commissioner, 21 we have asked him to unfreeze the recruitment amongst 22 minority officers, and I hope he does that. 23 MISS WEEKES: Do you know what the reason is for the freeze? 24 MR MANN: Yes, which is obviously -- the MPS has been 25 a victim of its own success, the number of applicants 67 1 across the board is far greater than the number of 2 training spaces at the moment, and there is a blockage, 3 and obviously, again, the same thing, about somebody who 4 has even been successful, they are not going to wait 5 12 months or 18 months to be told, "Yes, you have passed 6 everything but you cannot come to Hendon for another 7 12 months", I accept that, but the effect on minority 8 groups is greater, is magnified. 9 MISS WEEKES: Can you think of a practical method that will 10 allow you to share your obvious experience and 11 understanding of a Sikh person who would wish to become 12 a police officer with the majority of the white officers 13 in the Met on recruitment? 14 MR MANN: Sorry, I did not understand -- 15 MISS WEEKES: Perhaps I will put it again. You talked about 16 your recruitment drive and the Positive Action Team, and 17 I think you suggested that at one point, you tried to 18 bring it together, but it did not quite work. 19 MR MANN: We did; it was obvious to everyone, the advantages 20 of it. In the middle of 2002, we did come together. 21 I remember one of the first events which we held was at 22 Wembley, and we almost had a sort of subterfuge where 23 all the staff associations were at the front, and 24 members of the public were coming round to talk to us, 25 and once we got them trapped, as you say, we would pass 68 1 them on to the Positive Action Team who were lurking 2 behind us with the recruitment booths. So we did come 3 together, and it was a positive action. 4 MISS WEEKES: How can you continue that? That was obviously 5 a success, which was really initiated by you and your 6 organisation. 7 MR MANN: Well, I would not like to claim the sole credit. 8 As I say, it was such an obvious way of proceeding that 9 I think quite a few other people had the same idea, but 10 as I said, now there is no need to recruit people. 11 MISS WEEKES: The recruitment drive effectively really 12 has -- the freeze is -- 13 MR MANN: Since September last year, there has been 14 basically no recruitment. 15 MISS WEEKES: Can I go back to role models? I understand 16 your comments that role models have their limitations, 17 but I want to ask it in a different context. We are now 18 familiar with the hierarchy within the Met, and the few 19 visible ethnic minority officers that are at the top. 20 Is it easy for a senior visible ethnic minority officer 21 to still play a role? 22 MR MANN: Yes, yes, it is. I am always positive, but again, 23 there is lots and lots of little things which come into 24 play, for example if anybody, any member of that 25 particular officer's group is promoted on that group, 69 1 then the perception is it is because it is the same race 2 or same faith. That will take a long time to disappear. 3 The perception amongst minority group officers is it 4 is very hard for us to get into specialist departments 5 and promotions because of our lack of contacts at the 6 top, so if one or two people do get to the top, that is 7 to be welcomed. And I hope they are in a position to 8 encourage the rest of us to pursue -- because the 9 perception always had been that it is not even worth 10 applying to that department, because you are never going 11 to break in. So the application does not even get 12 filled in, let alone an interview or whatever, because 13 of your perception. 14 So you see somebody in that department, and 15 hopefully, other people will actually apply. 16 MISS WEEKES: You have mentioned something I think is 17 important, and it is the ability of a visible ethnic 18 minority person to move up into specialism. You 19 mentioned contacts; do you think that is how people get 20 to specialist departments, that you need contacts? 21 MR MANN: It is a fact of life. 22 MISS WEEKES: It is? 23 MR MANN: It is, because one of the roles which we try and 24 fulfil is that when a white member of the public wants 25 to join the police service, the reality is that he or 70 1 she will have a friend, a neighbour, a member of their 2 own family who is already a police officer, and they 3 will go and ask them what sort of preparations they need 4 to do to get into the police service, and they will get 5 guidance. So the chance of their success rate of 6 getting into the police service is greater than the 7 minority officers, minority public. They do not have 8 that friend within, and as I said, that is what we try 9 and fulfil, we fulfil that role. 10 We make ourselves known to members of the community, 11 and say, "If you want to come and join the police 12 service, come and talk to us, we will help you join the 13 police service, we will guide you. At the end of the 14 day, it is your effort, it is your hard work that will 15 get you in. But we will tell you what sort of things 16 you need to do, what sort of preparations you need to 17 do". 18 In the same way, if you have somebody in some 19 specialist departments, you can be guided as to what 20 sort of areas you need to train for, what sort of things 21 you need to do to get there, but if there is nobody 22 there, it is hard. 23 I remember -- this is something which the police 24 service actually recognised, and about two and a half 25 years ago, they brought out a booklet where there was 71 1 a contact within each specialist department, for example 2 somebody like me, wanting to join SO7 or SO9, whatever 3 the department was, there was a contact number and you 4 could phone that number and try and get some guidance. 5 But within about two months, that list was obsolete 6 and nobody bothered updating it. It was a good idea, 7 but it just fell by the wayside. 8 MISS WEEKES: Does mentoring work? I have heard about 9 mentoring. 10 MR MANN: Lots of things work if they are enacted properly. 11 For example, one of our welfare cases which we had, it 12 was brought out that this officer was supposed to have 13 a mentor, and he was actually assigned a mentor. The 14 problem is nobody told the mentor that he was supposed 15 to look after this officer, so the left hand and the 16 right hand never met. So lots of ideas which could 17 work. As I said, for example, the contact in the 18 specialist department, if it was updated regularly, it 19 could work. 20 MISS WEEKES: What recommendations or representations have 21 your organisation made about getting into specialist 22 departments? 23 MR MANN: We try and talk to ACHR, Mr Hogan-Howe, and tell 24 him about these problems, because at the end of the day, 25 it is his department that will effect transfers and 72 1 promotions and decide those movements. 2 We have had very little success with other 3 specialist departments, and to be honest, there are 4 specialist departments looking for minority officers and 5 looking for us to give them a hand. 6 MISS WEEKES: Well, there is an opportunity; you have taken 7 it, I am sure. 8 MR MANN: Well, some departments do, and we do encourage -- 9 and we spread the word to our members that these people 10 want you to be there, so they welcome you, take the 11 opportunity. 12 I can give you one example where -- talking about 13 role models, Special Branch is one department where we 14 are very reasonably represented, because once you get 15 one or two people in -- and obviously they are your 16 friends, and they talk to you and guide you, and other 17 people can break through, but it needs the first one to 18 get through. 19 MISS WEEKES: Yes. Thank you very much for your help. 20 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Singh. 21 I now invite Sir Anthony Burden to put one or two 22 questions to you. 23 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN 24 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: You are the first operational ethnic 25 officer that we have had a chance to speak to, so 73 1 forgive me if I take the opportunity just to test one or 2 two things with you. We have been told on several 3 occasions now of the reluctance of managers locally to 4 manage, particularly members of minority ethnic staff, 5 we guess because of the fear of counter racist 6 allegations. 7 Because of that refusal to grip issues locally, 8 there is a tendency to report them officially to the 9 directorate of professional standards, and everything 10 becomes very official very quickly. Would that be your 11 experience? 12 MR MANN: Yes, it is. Lots and lots of the problems which 13 we have come across are very, very minor problems, which 14 become major problems because of the lack of handling. 15 Had it been -- if there was a mechanism whereby 16 people could actually sit round a table and sort it out 17 at a very, very early stage, then people can sort it 18 out; people can talk about it. Like I said, the whole 19 process becomes the big thing. 20 For example, when we first started, we found that 21 lots of complaints were not being dealt with quickly, 22 and they would be ignored. The length of the time to 23 investigate them would become the main issue, or who 24 investigated it. And, as I said, communication was one 25 of the points which was flagged up earlier; people were 74 1 not being told what was happening. People were being 2 left to their own devices to find out what was 3 happening. 4 So lots of minor things became major things because 5 of neglect, and lots of managers' reluctance to take 6 charge and manage. 7 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: We have also heard that possibly one of 8 the reasons for that that has been put forward is that 9 there is a blame culture and a fear of getting things 10 wrong if you try and resolve things locally. Would you 11 accept that? 12 MR MANN: Yes, I would. I get things wrong every day, and 13 I think as soon as the MPS accepts that, getting wrong 14 is not a problem. Getting things wrong again and again 15 and again is a problem. 16 If people do get it wrong, people should not be 17 sacked or demoted or whatever, as long as it is done 18 with good intent. If the intent is not there, if there 19 is ill intent, then yes, people should be sacked or 20 demoted, but people make mistakes every day of their 21 life. People should be held accountable to that. 22 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you. Can I move on to 23 a separate issue? We have received an individual 24 submission from one of your colleagues who whilst at 25 Hendon was challenged about his appearance, which 75 1 immediately impacted upon his religion and his religious 2 beliefs. 3 He makes the point that although he had to go to 4 great lengths to convince the staff at Hendon that, in 5 terms of appearance, it was in accordance with his 6 religion, that when he became more familiar with the 7 workings of the Metropolitan Police Service, he actually 8 found a policy that would have told the officers that, 9 if they had only bothered to read the policy. 10 MR MANN: That has happened at least about half a dozen 11 times, where the trainers do not know the policy. 12 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So if you have got people in middle 13 rank positions within the service who do not understand 14 about, for example, the Sikh religion, but obviously 15 other religions, have there been any initiatives to 16 perhaps invite members of staff to attend gurdwaras to 17 listen to inputs on the Sikh religion and Sikh culture? 18 MR MANN: Yes. We actually held a cultural evening in 19 November 2002, about 140 or 150 members of the MPS 20 attended, but unfortunately, there seems to be a culture 21 that if you do take an interest in faith, then you are 22 a bit strange, that people of faith are a bit strange. 23 Even if you have an interest, you must not show it. 24 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: But from an organisational viewpoint, 25 surely if an operational officer has reason to call at 76 1 a Sikh household, maybe in relation to an incident 2 involving a young female member of the family who may be 3 a victim, an understanding of the Sikh culture is 4 absolutely essential in such circumstances, is it not, 5 you would think? 6 MR MANN: Not necessarily. I think an attitude is 7 essential, an attitude to learn. As I said, I do not 8 know about all the other faiths in this world, but 9 I take the attitude that if I do not know, I will ask. 10 I will ask with respect, and if I can do that, then 11 I cannot see why anybody should take offence. 12 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So what you heard earlier this 13 afternoon from your colleagues in the Christian Police 14 Association, who are very well-versed with diversity 15 training, would you agree that the millions of pounds 16 and the millions of personhours spent on diversity 17 training -- that the messages do not seem to be getting 18 through that permafrost that you have mentioned? At the 19 top, there is no problem, but in terms of middle 20 managers and on the ground, the message is not being 21 received positively. 22 MR MANN: Lip service is paid, and at the right time, ie 23 promotion, people say and do the right things, but in 24 reality, people do not. The training is wasted. 25 I totally agree with the CPA on that. Attitudes need to 77 1 change, not just training. But it has not, 2 unfortunately. 3 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: And as you heard your colleague say, 4 would you agree that management grip at local level is 5 also important? 6 MR MANN: It is. I have seen several very good managers who 7 lead by example, and if they take the attitude, then 8 I think most police officers do follow. 9 I remember, this is going back quite some time ago, 10 in 1989, I was part of a public order seal outside 11 a local temple, because there was arguments between the 12 two groups of people running the temple. 13 The attitude was, "No, we will not enter the temple" 14 -- people were going to enter the temple with their 15 shoes on, "There is no way we are going to take our 16 shoes off". Well, the Chief Inspector came along and he 17 took his shoes off and he went in, and everybody else 18 meekly followed. Whereas before, everybody was 19 vociferous that they would not. 20 It took one person to lead and everybody followed. 21 I remember looking at everybody's faces, and all these 22 hard men, you know, who did not want to take their shoes 23 off no matter what, did. He led by example, this 24 Chief Inspector. 25 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: I am very pleased to hear it. 78 1 Can I just finally pursue one issue that my 2 colleague Miss Weekes mentioned earlier, and that is 3 about specialist department appointments? There may or 4 may not be, but can I just ask whether you are aware of 5 any positive action initiatives in the MPS that would 6 encourage and support Sikh officers who are looking to 7 apply for specialist appointments to assist them in 8 their application, to make them aware of the department 9 and perhaps ensure they are on a level playing field 10 with their white colleagues when it comes to their 11 applications? 12 MR MANN: I think it is left to individual departments, and 13 there have been a few departments who have contacted us, 14 and we have supported them, and we have spread the word, 15 we have encouraged our members to come and join them, 16 and basically look at them; it may not be for them, but 17 at least if they are aware of what the possibilities 18 are, then they should look at them, and it may be 19 something they may want to go to -- maybe not 20 immediately, but in a few years' time, and we have 21 supported them, but there does not seem to be an 22 MPS-wide policy to do that. 23 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: And certainly not that you are aware 24 of, and as chairman of the Sikh Association, just 25 retired, you would have been, I guess. 79 1 MR MANN: Apart from one policy, which is for minority CID 2 officers, for female and minority group officers. 3 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Yes, we have heard of that. Thank you 4 very much indeed, that was very helpful. 5 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Mr Singh, thank you very much indeed 6 for responding to our questions. At the end of my 7 introductory comments, I did indicate that I would offer 8 to you the opportunity to make any closing statements or 9 remarks that you wish to offer to us. If you do so 10 wish, this is the time to do it. 11 MR MANN: I was listening earlier on to the CPS submission, 12 and you were asking them about other positive things 13 which the MPS has done, and I remember looking at this; 14 the CCRU, I do not know whether you are aware of the 15 CCRU? The Community and Cultural Resource Unit was one 16 thing which has had quite a positive effect on minority 17 officers, because it gives them a chance to give that 18 added value to their service careers. It gives them 19 a chance to contribute a bit more than what they were 20 doing in normal circumstances. And that is something to 21 be encouraged, and the MPS is to be congratulated on 22 that. 23 Again, the Samurai group, all the five faiths are 24 there. It is not just something we acknowledge, we 25 actually support each other on most issues. We 80 1 acknowledge the fact we are different, but we all have 2 the right to be different, and we support each other in 3 any way we can. 4 As Bob Pull said, it is a role model across the 5 MPS -- not just across the MPS, but other police 6 services are looking at us, I know certainly the City of 7 London police have adopted it, and they have come to us 8 to advise them. 9 You also talked about -- I think you asked the 10 question about what is the best tool. The intranet is 11 not a very good tool. It is a very poor tool. We have 12 information overload, policies overload. We as 13 operational police officers do not have the time to sit 14 down and read everything that is thrown at us. If it 15 was, we would never actually go out on patrol or go and 16 serve the community. I think if anything, we need to 17 cut down on the paperwork, cut down on policies and cut 18 down on the information which we have to take in. 19 All I want to do is basically have lots and lots 20 more minority officers in the police service to change 21 the attitude. That is one of the reasons why I joined. 22 I do not believe in standing on the sidelines, I believe 23 in joining the police service and making a difference, 24 and I want more and more officers to come and join us. 25 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Okay, thank you very much. For the 81 1 record, let me just conclude by saying that as with all 2 our witnesses, it may be that once we have heard from 3 others, we will want to ask you a few more questions, 4 either by writing to you or asking you to come back to 5 one of these hearings. If we do need to ask further 6 questions or indeed write to you, we will try and do so 7 in a way which affords the least inconvenience to you. 8 But for the moment, all that I need to do, on behalf of 9 my two colleagues, is to thank you very much indeed for 10 coming along, and to thank you for the contribution that 11 you are making to this Inquiry. Thank you very much. 12 MR MANN: Thank you very much.