10 MS ESME CROWTHER 11 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Ms Crowther, good morning to you, and 12 can I start by thanking you for accepting our invitation 13 to attend our Inquiry today, and indeed for letting us 14 have your written submission? 15 We had listed the witnesses this morning, insofar as 16 MPS is concerned, as legal and ET, so from that point, 17 for this session, it is my intention to truncate the 18 normal opening comments, save for introducing the panel 19 and one or two other observations. 20 I am Bill Morris, recently retired General Secretary 21 of the Transport and General Workers Union, and this is 22 Anesta Weekes QC; Anesta is a chairperson of employment 23 tribunals, an eminent barrister, and was in fact counsel 24 to the Lawrence Inquiry; Sir Anthony Burden, you 25 probably know, recently retired Chief Constable of the 65 1 South Wales Constabulary. That, in essence, is our 2 panel. 3 As is customary with all other witnesses, I will say 4 how I intend to conduct the hearing: I will start with 5 some opening questions, followed by my colleagues, 6 Miss Weekes and Sir Anthony, and if I deem it 7 necessary -- it may just be that I might want to put one 8 or two supplementary questions to you. 9 You will, of course, as with everyone else, be 10 invited to make a short closing comment at the end of 11 the questions, and it is a matter for your good self as 12 to whether or not you take advantage of that 13 opportunity. 14 So dispensing with the preliminary, because as 15 I have indicated, we did list you with your colleague 16 Mr Hamilton and his colleague, could I ask you formally, 17 please, to introduce yourself to the Inquiry for the 18 benefit of the transcript record? And can I just say 19 that our proceedings this morning, and as always, will 20 be posted on the website, just by way of information to 21 you. 22 MS CROWTHER: Thank you very much, Sir William. 23 My name is Esme Crowther, I am the head of the 24 employment tribunal unit, which is part of the MPS 25 directorate of professional standards. That is a post 66 1 I have occupied for roughly ten years. In that time, 2 the unit has moved from being the equal opportunities 3 unit to the employment tribunal and grievance advice 4 unit, but we lost responsibility for grievance 5 management with the introduction of Fairness at Work in 6 May 2003. 7 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Okay, thank you very much indeed. 8 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS 9 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Could I ask you to expand a little on 10 your role as head of the ET unit? We are not quite 11 sure, at least I am not quite sure, whether the role is 12 as a policy advisor to the MPS on ET cases, or one as 13 the key administrator, managing the cases, liaising with 14 the directorate of legal services, and indeed 15 instructing and liaising with outside solicitors. If 16 you could sort of just give us a feel as to the role? 17 MS CROWTHER: Yes, of course. I think it encompasses all of 18 those things that you have mentioned. I mean, the 19 primary purpose of the unit is to give instructions to 20 the lawyers on what the strategy is to be on any 21 particular employment tribunal case. But it goes 22 further than that, and perhaps we can look prior to the 23 employment tribunal being lodged, because I know that is 24 an area of concern to the panel: is enough being done to 25 prevent situations leading to employment tribunal in the 67 1 first place? 2 We do have an active role there, my unit is 3 regularly contacted by managers who are dealing with 4 conflict situations that have the potential to end up in 5 an employment tribunal or a Fairness at Work procedure, 6 and advice of case managers or deputy case managers is 7 sought as to how they can deal fairly with the scenario, 8 whatever it may be, and avoid that conflict escalating. 9 Managers throughout the MPS visit the unit on 10 a regular basis. We do go out, as far as we are able 11 to, and provide that sort of support and guidance to 12 them in the workplace. 13 The main barrier to that, I have to say, is the 14 resourcing. I have a very small unit, and I cannot miss 15 an opportunity this morning to keep emphasising my lack 16 of resources, so maybe the Inquiry report might help me 17 there! 18 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: We know how you feel! 19 MS CROWTHER: So there is that advice and guidance role, 20 there is the instructions to the lawyers, and some of 21 those cases are managed not necessarily by MPS lawyers, 22 some of them are dealt with by external firms of 23 solicitors as well. 24 We undertake research as part of the preparation of 25 the employment tribunal case in liaison with legal 68 1 services. We bring our personnel background to bear, 2 our knowledge of, "How should this situation have been 3 managed? Does it appear from the evidence that is being 4 put together that this is appropriate; that this is 5 a position that the MPS should be defending, can 6 defend?" At various points we receive counsel's advice, 7 but our own judgment plays an important part in the 8 approach taken. 9 From the outset, when an ET1 is received, if it 10 appears to be a matter that really should not need to 11 escalate towards a full hearing of employment tribunal, 12 we would be speaking at an early stage to local managers 13 who are on the ground, helping them as best we can to 14 try and address the issues, and avoid the thing moving 15 inevitably towards a hearing. So we have that kind of 16 role. 17 There is a lot of collation of management 18 information. Clearly this is a matter of public 19 concern; it is a matter of concern to many senior people 20 within the MPS, and they are interested to see what the 21 data is telling us about these situations. So we 22 provide reports, we provide reports to the 23 Police Authority on this sort of material as well. 24 And most importantly, we provide a lot of learning 25 material; I know in my submission I make reference to 69 1 that, and in the documents supporting it. I provided 2 examples of our newsletters which we have provided to 3 the organisation for a number of years, and various 4 booklets that we have produced. We have a website now, 5 and there are case scenarios presented there. 6 We take part in training events. We deliver the 7 induction process for personal managers, who are clearly 8 a key group for us, to hit with our important messages. 9 So that is the kind of range of things we are involved 10 in. 11 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Sure. We note from what we have read, 12 and indeed what some witnesses have told us, that there 13 are what I would indicate is concerned about the 14 level -- the degree of delays in progressing ET cases; 15 400 days is not uncommon. 16 We have also learned from Mr Hamilton earlier on 17 that the approach, the methodology of approach, I think 18 the way he put it, "We front load our information 19 gathering", and by sort of interpretation of that, I am 20 seeing a situation where once you receive the ET1s, 21 before you respond, you gather as much information as 22 possible. 23 My question is: do you think the front-loading of 24 information gathering, which obviously is a quite 25 enormous exercise, has contributed in itself to the 70 1 delay, the quantum period of delay in overall terms? 2 MS CROWTHER: I am not sure that it is necessarily 3 attributable to the front-loading -- 4 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I said "contributed to". 5 MS CROWTHER: I am sorry? 6 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I said: do you think the front-loading 7 of gathering information contributes to the unacceptable 8 period of delay? 9 MS CROWTHER: I am not sure that I would see that as 10 a critical factor. I think it is inevitable. We need 11 to gather that information because we are in the hands 12 of the tribunal, we have the time limit, we have to put 13 some form of defence in within a very short space of 14 time; so there has to be that initial piece of work. 15 The 400 days which is being quoted, I think is a 16 product of the Liversidge/Baskerville hiatus, if I can 17 put it that way, that colleagues have referred to 18 already today. I think we have been through 19 an exceptionally difficult period for applicants and for 20 the organisation, while there was so much uncertainty 21 around whether cases would be able to progress, and if 22 so, on what basis. 23 I am glad that most of that now seems to be in the 24 past. I hope we can look forward to the length of time 25 involved in tribunals coming down considerably in the 71 1 future, not least because of a particular review and 2 intervention process that was put in train in the latter 3 part of last year, looking at long-standing cases and 4 seeing if there was scope through the intervention of 5 others, and that is senior colleagues in HR -- and 6 I know you have been interested in the role of HR in 7 those matters, colleagues in diversity directorate and 8 others -- to see if their examining the issues provides 9 any fresh perspective and any scope for moving things 10 along in some of those rather protracted cases. 11 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: You have told us in your submission, 12 and indeed, that has been echoed by others, that up to 13 2000 -- October, I think it was -- the ET unit was 14 located within the personnel division, as it was then. 15 That has been changed, and you are now located in the 16 directorate for professional standards. 17 When we had evidence from DAC Roberts, he gave the 18 rationale for the move -- one of risk management, he 19 said. Could you tell us, in this context, what does 20 "risk management" mean? 21 MS CROWTHER: I think what that is all about is putting the 22 litigation risks facing the MPS in one basket, so that 23 we can look at the links between those various cases, 24 and there are links of different kinds, and seeing how 25 best that the global picture, if you like, can best be 72 1 managed from the organisation's point of view, and 2 appropriate treatment, of course, for the individual in 3 any particular case as well. 4 I think something more than 50 per cent of our 5 employment tribunal claims actually have a related DPS 6 investigation. Often, that is already in train at the 7 point when the ET is lodged, so there is an opportunity, 8 if you like -- I am not saying that the existence of 9 an ET influences how that disciplinary misconduct 10 process is taken forward, I am not saying that for 11 a moment, but at least there is a communication about 12 timescale, what is going on and so on, and any issue 13 such as failure to communicate, which is regrettably 14 often an issue for applicants, that they do not know 15 what is happening in that internal investigation, or 16 that is what they are telling us, any things like that 17 that are coming up and we are aware of them through the 18 ET side can be put right. 19 So I think there is some sound thinking about the 20 positioning of the ET unit within DPS, but that is not 21 to say there are pros and cons both ways. 22 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Lord Harris and the appropriate 23 committee offer us the view that by locating it where it 24 is in the department of professional standards 25 directorate, it inevitably takes on a legalistic context 73 1 rather than -- and the culture becomes one of 2 litigation, as you have just indicated, rather than 3 settlement. 4 MS CROWTHER: Yes. 5 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Would you share that view? 6 MS CROWTHER: I can see where he is coming from on that, no 7 question about it. I had reservations when the decision 8 was taken; I have to say, there was not a good deal of 9 consultation about the repositioning, but a decision was 10 taken. 11 And at that time, we were still responsible for the 12 grievance procedure, and I was particularly 13 uncomfortable that the grievance procedure, which is all 14 about resolution and informality and no blame, moved to 15 the disciplinary arm, if you like, for police officers, 16 of the organisation. 17 Of course, I can see that from a perception point of 18 view, the same can be argued around the employment 19 tribunals, that if we want to send a message that this 20 is about resolving things, et cetera, at an early stage, 21 then perhaps that more comfortably comes back with 22 Fairness at Work and the efforts of the HR discipline. 23 I do not think anything has actually changed in how 24 we manage these cases. We are the same staff, we are HR 25 professionals, as I think a number of people have 74 1 already said to you. We sit within the main HR 2 headquarters building of the MPS, two doors down from 3 the Fairness at Work co-ordinator, with whom we are 4 constantly liaising. But I think for a point of 5 perception. And particularly perhaps for some of our 6 staff support associations, it is not attractive that 7 the unit is within DPS, and I would not argue with that. 8 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I live near the church, but I do not go 9 every day! 10 Let me share with you one of the concerns that is 11 emerging, and we are trying to untangle all this, 12 because you see, part of our terms of reference is 13 workplace matters, workplace issues, and central to 14 workplace issues are people issues. People are central 15 to that. We see, if you like, the instruments and 16 departments that facilitate good people issues in terms 17 of industrial relations, like diversity, like HR, legal 18 back-up, and of course employment tribunal issues; all 19 these are central people issues, but they are fragmented 20 in terms of the structure. 21 I would just ask you to recognise that every single 22 employment case represents a failure on somebody's part, 23 principally management's part. 24 Would you, therefore, support a structure of 25 a directorate, say, with HR, diversity and ET with legal 75 1 back-up -- you would have legal back-up in supporting 2 your ET cases, so litigation in other spheres could be 3 floated off on its own? 4 The advantages, as I would promote them, are that ET 5 would contribute to the policy development of HR and 6 diversity, because some of those cases are a lack of 7 policies on HR; and secondly, those who are working with 8 the employment tribunal unit would understand better the 9 dynamics of frontline management or workplace management 10 or line management, the issues that gives rise to the 11 employment tribunal. The third advantage is that you 12 would then have, on tap, on call, your own legal back-up 13 support. 14 Would you support a proposition which would advance 15 that structure? 16 MS CROWTHER: I think you are talking about a very large 17 body of people to cover all those bases. To take some 18 of the points you made in reverse order, legal back-up, 19 and having it available to us, I feel we have that 20 already, the employment law group, headed by Sandra 21 Burrows, who you heard from earlier, is only a phone 22 call away. They are at our disposal; there is no two 23 ways about it. It does not necessarily have to be 24 an employment tribunal. If I am presented with a 25 scenario and I am unclear what the best way to go on it 76 1 is, and I need legal advice, then I can obtain that 2 immediately from colleagues in legal services. 3 And we can make requests for advice to be sought on 4 particular issues and so on, and we have a very positive 5 relationship, they are very receptive to our needs, so 6 I am not sure that we would necessarily need to be sort 7 of within the same framework of the organisation; 8 I mean, to some extent, we are already, as we sit in 9 DPS, we are under the Deputy Commissioner's command, as 10 is the directorate of legal services, so there is some 11 structure to it at the moment, but I do not know that we 12 need to come closer together on that. 13 The opportunity to contribute to policy development: 14 again, I feel we have that opportunity at the moment. 15 As I said, we are at the heart of the HR function. We 16 have good contacts in the HR policy development unit; in 17 fact, at one time, those responsible for writing HR 18 policy, the current equal opportunities policy 19 statement, I should say, and the old grievance 20 procedure, were both written by colleagues who were 21 within my unit, when it was the equal opportunities 22 unit. 23 We have very strong links there, and we can feed the 24 learning from cases back into the policy developers. We 25 supply a lot of data on a regular basis, both to HR and 77 1 diversity, and I know they take account of that in the 2 work that they do. 3 So I think those links are there. That is not to 4 say they could not be improved, and perhaps the 5 structure that you suggest would be successful, and 6 would foster more effective coworking; I would not rule 7 it out. 8 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: You see, there is a belief that the 9 environment contributes to the culture, and where ET is 10 located, it has a culture about professional integrity, 11 it is about conduct, it is about discipline; it is not 12 about settlement, and ET cases ultimately are about 13 settlement, because if nothing else, there is 14 a reputational cost to the organisation. And it is that 15 that leads to the thinking that a new environment with 16 added support, and I hear what you say, that you have to 17 make a telephone call to get your legal, but what we are 18 saying is it would be there for you; turn the tap and it 19 is in abundance. 20 But the whole concept of it is to try and create 21 a new dynamic of confidence, both for the way ET cases 22 are handled and the benefit to the legal department 23 itself, because we have had written submissions which 24 indicate, and we have heard evidence which indicates 25 that the legal department is not seen as friendly and 78 1 responsive for the benefit of the employees, but is seen 2 as a department which delays, or it has a strategy which 3 delays. 4 To summarise, part of its raison d'etre is to wear 5 people down, it has been said in evidence to us, and it 6 is in that context that we are promoting the principle 7 of looking to see how a different structure could give 8 us some joined up policies, and what we call the golden 9 thread on the people issues. 10 MS CROWTHER: I think it is difficult to deal with those 11 perceptions. 12 I mean, I know there is no legal strategy to 13 deliberately delay the progress of cases, or to wear 14 people down. Colleagues have mentioned positive efforts 15 about the learning from cases, and that regrettably, 16 there can be delays for good reason from both sides; 17 that on occasion, efforts to get an indication of what 18 it would take to settle particular cases have not been 19 forthcoming from the other side. So I think there are 20 some issues there, and perhaps some applicants have 21 formed what is not entirely a position supported by the 22 evidence. 23 But I certainly do not want to leave you with the 24 impression that we are not settlement focused from 25 an early stage, because I believe that we are. But if 79 1 people are taking a different view, based simply on the 2 fact that we are part of DPS, with all the connotations 3 attached to that, then there may be good reason that 4 a different structure would be a more positive one for 5 the organisation. 6 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: In your own submission, you have 7 indicated that -- you said, and I quote, "I accept that 8 in the last few months, there has been a lack of clarity 9 over the roles of various directorates with an interest 10 in employment tribunals", so there is a debate, I would 11 respectfully suggest, to be had there. 12 Could I ask you to address the points that I raised 13 earlier about delays? What do you think is the major 14 contributing factor from the MPS' point of view to 15 delays? 16 MS CROWTHER: This is delays in employment tribunals 17 reaching a conclusion? 18 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Indeed. 19 MS CROWTHER: Often when the case is lodged, as I think 20 I said earlier, there is a Fairness at Work procedure or 21 an internal investigation in progress, so we are in the 22 hands of those processes whilst we await the outcome 23 before the ET can progress. Normally, a stay is agreed, 24 because the tribunal want us to be able to arrive at an 25 internal solution, hopefully, to these matters, rather 80 1 than proceeding inevitably towards the tribunal hearing. 2 So any delays in those processes will obviously have 3 a knock-on effect for the employment tribunal. I know 4 a lot of good work has been done by colleagues in 5 internal investigations command in DPS to bring down the 6 number of days involved typically in an internal 7 investigation, but that is not to say that there is not 8 an opportunity for improvements to be made there, and 9 I know that is something that employment tribunals have 10 criticised the MPS for in the past. 11 Other factors that have caused delay can be 12 difficulties with engaging with applicants, they can be 13 off sick, and unwilling to get into discussions, 14 understandably, if their health is going to suffer as 15 a consequence; it may be the availability of 16 representatives. I am aware of members of borough 17 senior management team endeavouring to engage with 18 applicants to try and sort things out at an early stage, 19 and they have been rebuffed with, "I am sorry, you will 20 have to speak to my lawyers, I see the ET as my route to 21 resolve this, rather than any internal option". So 22 there is some of that. 23 So I think there are a various of factors that have 24 led to these long drawn-out processes, not least 25 Liversidge, and I will not keep dwelling on that, but it 81 1 has been an exceptional factor, I think, that we have 2 seen over the last two or three years. 3 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: We are aware that your department or 4 your good self does carry out case reviews following 5 settlements, looking at lessons learned. Can you share 6 with us how lessons learned or the information from 7 lessons learned are used to inform better managerial 8 practices? 9 MS CROWTHER: Yes, it is through the means, some of which 10 I mentioned earlier: we write articles and place these 11 on the intranet site, it is in the form of a newsletter. 12 From time to time, we do other bespoke pieces of work. 13 We did a "Demystifying Tribunals" booklet that I know 14 you have been provided with, and that reflected 15 particular issues that I know managers had sought some 16 clarification on. 17 The learning from ETs is also fed into management 18 training. What has happened is that the management 19 training school based at Hendon have come to us and 20 said, "What are the typical issues?", to inform the 21 scenarios that they then present on their particularly 22 first line manager training courses, both for police 23 officers and for police staff. 24 So what that means is that the delegates who are 25 attending those courses are given very realistic 82 1 scenarios as the sort of thing, as a manager, that they 2 would have to be dealing with, in avoiding grievance or 3 ET type situations developing. 4 So we are feeding into training school, there is 5 a lot of material on the website and in the newsletter, 6 and we provide workshops and seminars when we are able 7 to; I brief borough commanders at the annual DPS borough 8 commanders seminar on any particular points. We take 9 part in induction to personnel managers; we have done 10 training for first contact advisors, to help them 11 improve their understanding on how to nip things in the 12 bud, if I can put it that way. 13 We would like to do more -- back to the resources 14 issue. I know SMTs would like to see us going out there 15 and talking to them about what is coming up from their 16 experiences, what are their people having problems with, 17 and if I had more than a handful of people, we would be 18 able to do that on a regular basis, so I think that 19 gives you a flavour. 20 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you. Thank you very much, that 21 concludes my list of questions. I ask Miss Weekes to 22 put her questions to you. 23 Questions by MISS WEEKES 24 MISS WEEKES: Thank you. That is quite an important 25 juncture, because I would like to follow through the 83 1 chairman's questions about follow-up after the 2 assessment of what has happened at the employment 3 tribunal and it is quite clear you have demonstrated in 4 your submission that there are certain aspects which, 5 apart from the newsletter, you have just summarised. 6 It takes me to the question of resources. Can 7 I just go back to the general summary -- I say a general 8 summary, but a very helpful summary -- that the legal 9 department gave us as to the nature of race cases and 10 the issues that they raise, and the nature of gender 11 cases, and the issues they raised. 12 May I just use an example, because I think we want 13 to deal with your resources issue. On the question of 14 gender, what has been told to us, again just in sort of 15 an overall summary form -- I think you were in the 16 audience and you heard the summary. 17 MS CROWTHER: Mm. 18 MISS WEEKES: One of the issues was more indirect gender 19 discrimination than direct. When you receive that 20 information, if you did have the resources, what would 21 you wish to do about improving the relationship between 22 management and female officers and staff that would help 23 to prevent employment tribunal cases occurring? 24 MS CROWTHER: Right. So sorry, just to understand your 25 question, if an ET1 is received, what we would like to 84 1 be doing immediately? 2 MISS WEEKES: No, it is my fault, I have put the question 3 badly. We now know the nature of the type of cases and 4 subject matters that are coming to the employment 5 tribunals in relation to gender issues, and if you were 6 given the right resources, what actions would you take 7 to improve the relationship between female officers and 8 staff to prevent those cases coming to the employment 9 tribunal? 10 MS CROWTHER: Right, okay. Well based on the particular 11 issues, if we already have some understanding of them, 12 I think we could do more on the sort of material that 13 I have mentioned already, developing training packages, 14 providing workshops to first line managers, to say, 15 "These are the typical difficulties, this is where it is 16 going wrong". I mean, clearly if there were any 17 overarching policy difficulties, they need to be put 18 right at the earliest opportunity, and we would be 19 working with the people with those responsibilities to 20 ensure that that happens. So we would need to do that. 21 But what I would also like to get into would be: 22 what are the other problems that perhaps have not 23 surfaced yet? Maybe we could have focus groups with 24 groups of staff, perhaps arranging that through the 25 staff support associations such as the BPA, developing 85 1 our working relationships there. So perhaps under their 2 umbrella, which I think people would find more positive 3 perhaps than the direct approach from ourselves, to say, 4 "Well, you tell us what the things are that we need to 5 be looking at, thinking of, telling line managers that 6 they are not doing very well at the moment, to avoid 7 things turning into such an issue that it becomes 8 a Fairness at Work or even an ET". 9 MISS WEEKES: Do you think that you understand sufficiently 10 the complaints that women make about their relationship 11 with management at work? 12 MS CROWTHER: I have perhaps some insight into that as 13 a woman, but I would not presume for a moment to be able 14 to put myself in someone else's shoes, and I think 15 nothing can improve the opportunity for that individual 16 to provide that insight for themselves, and for someone 17 with some skills in the area to develop that into 18 learning for the organisation. 19 I think that is how we could make the most of that; 20 it is all very well, I think, for a lay person such as 21 myself to do their best, but there are probably more 22 professional ways we could draw out that information. 23 MISS WEEKES: Well, undoubtedly, the first stage would be to 24 draw out the information, so you really do have a firm 25 and clear, concise understanding of the problem, and 86 1 then you can remedy. 2 So first of all in relation to what we might 3 recommend, is there more work to be done on actually 4 understanding the position that women sometimes find 5 themselves in which will result in an employment 6 tribunal case? 7 MS CROWTHER: I would think that there is, definitely. I do 8 not want to ignore the important work that is already 9 going on under the umbrella of the diversity 10 directorate. A lot of work is in hand looking at issues 11 for females, black females in particular, female members 12 of police staff; so groups that have some sort of 13 cross-referencing, if you like, of different sorts of 14 minority experiences. So there is a lot of work in hand 15 already, but I think more can be done, and this is 16 something certainly that my case managers have 17 identified, that it is something that they would like to 18 be able to get into. 19 Also looking at cases that are withdrawn; what was 20 the resolution for that individual? We do not know 21 that, we do not have that information. Did they just 22 become so disaffected with the whole process that they 23 chose to withdraw the ET, or was the issue actually 24 resolved somewhere along the line? We do not have that 25 information, so I think there is more we could do to 87 1 benefit the organisation. 2 MISS WEEKES: Do you find the women associations of 3 assistance to you in actually telling you, "Well, these 4 are the problems, these are the shortcomings, these are 5 our suggestions about remedies and change"? 6 MS CROWTHER: We have not heard a great deal, to be fair, 7 from the particular women's organisations, and that may 8 be because they are feeding in more to the diversity 9 directorate; perhaps this comes back to some of the 10 fragmentation that has been referred to earlier. 11 MISS WEEKES: That was referred to earlier, yes. So just to 12 ensure that we are on top of available information, the 13 central port of call for us to understand why women are 14 going to employment tribunals is back to the diversity 15 directorate, is that right? 16 MS CROWTHER: No, I would not say that. I mean, we have 17 classifications on the employment tribunals and we can 18 tell you the sort of reasons that people are actually 19 citing in their claim, but if there is more to it than 20 that, or people are not even choosing to go down that 21 route but maybe still have matters of concern, I think 22 that the more global picture would be better portrayed 23 through the work of the diversity directorate. 24 MISS WEEKES: Yes. You may not have had a great deal of 25 communication with the women's groups, but have you 88 1 taken the opportunity to ask them, as the person in 2 charge of employment tribunals, "Well, I note last year 3 we had X number of cases from females in this 4 organisation, can you tell me what are the underlying 5 problems?" Have you actually done that? There are 6 three women organisations, are there not? 7 MS CROWTHER: Yes. 8 MISS WEEKES: Have you spoken to them direct? 9 MS CROWTHER: I cannot say that I have, no, not of late. 10 I have had more relationship with organisations such as 11 the Black Police Association, because I think in recent 12 months particularly, our focus has been more on race 13 cases rather than gender, but that is something we are 14 now changing, because we have looked at the 15 long-standing race cases, we are moving into the rest, 16 if you like, so certainly not to lose sight of the 17 issues of gender discrimination. 18 I mean, certainly as part of our resolution of 19 a number of gender based ETs, we have allowed applicants 20 access to senior female members of the organisation, 21 I am thinking particularly of DAC Carol Howlett who 22 I know you are hearing from later today. So we are 23 helping applicants, if you like, to inform the senior 24 women organisations about their particular issues, going 25 beyond what is simply in their tribunal application, but 89 1 I think we have cut ourselves out of the loop and we 2 need to get back in there. I think that is what is 3 coming to me from your approach. 4 MISS WEEKES: Why do you think that has happened? Is that 5 because the issue of race has now so dominated the 6 diversity issue that women's issues, gender issues have 7 been left behind? 8 MS CROWTHER: I think to some extent, that is the case, and 9 I think that is not surprising, given all that was 10 invested in our response to the tragic death of Stephen 11 Lawrence, and the MacPherson report, and I know your 12 involvement in all of that. But we have done 13 a tremendous amount on race discrimination and community 14 relations, and that has been recognised. Our diversity 15 strategy phase II acknowledges the need to move into how 16 we treat the other groups, and look more closely at 17 that, but I think we have got some way to go there. 18 I think that is demonstrated from a number of groups 19 that I am involved in. One is the long-standing 20 grievance and ET group, which is led by Denise Milani, 21 who you heard about earlier; she has a very powerful 22 role within the diversity directorate. 23 At that group, at the moment, it is only BPA and IAG 24 who are coming along, and from what we have been talking 25 about this morning, I am thinking we ought to be 90 1 extending that to some of these senior -- and other 2 women officers and staff organisations, and get them 3 involved. 4 MISS WEEKES: I think in fairness I ought to ask you, 5 because you have a particularly important role to play, 6 what do you say are the most important re-occurring 7 issues that are presented by females in ET cases? 8 MS CROWTHER: To be fair, I do not think that the issues are 9 any different from those presented in the race 10 discrimination cases. It is not overt racist or sexist 11 behaviour, it tends to be the impact of management 12 action. 13 I jotted a few things down when you were talking to 14 the DLS colleagues earlier. It tends to be about 15 appraisal, the perception of unfairness in the way 16 an appraisal has been put together, promotion, 17 selection, postings, access to training and development 18 opportunities; to some extent, misconduct issues, or the 19 outcomes of disciplinary procedures. 20 It can be how a DPS investigation has been 21 conducted, or the lack or absence of a DPS 22 investigation, so it can go both ways. 23 But I think underpinning all of that, it is about 24 communication. If management took the opportunity to 25 explain the rationale for the decisions they have taken 91 1 in selection or how this appraisal was arrived at, where 2 was their evidence; if they had that early discussion, 3 then I think there is a real opportunity for a lot of 4 these to be avoided, because it is a theme that comes up 5 time and time again, and I think George McAnuff made 6 reference to it, looking at Fairness at Work, yesterday: 7 it is about our failure to explain our decisions to 8 people, so they form a view that they have been 9 disadvantaged. 10 If we invested a bit of time and effort in 11 disabusing them of that at an early stage, I think we 12 would do a lot better. 13 MISS WEEKES: So what is your general view of the response 14 by the MPS in relation to these cases? There is, of 15 course, the ET1, which will set out the female's 16 position, but what is the general response to this 17 re-occurring theme that you see in the ET3s? 18 MS CROWTHER: The re-occurring theme of failure of 19 communication? 20 MISS WEEKES: Well, not only of communication. The 21 allegation -- or if I can put it more neutrally, the 22 ET1s for females, you say, have a re-occurring theme, 23 that they are being discriminated against on the basis 24 of their gender in relation to appraisals, for example, 25 and promotion. What is the response that you see from 92 1 the organisation in relation to those particular topics? 2 MS CROWTHER: Well, the response from the organisation, in 3 terms of the tribunal, will be to explain the basis for 4 the decision, for the content of the appraisal, or the 5 decisions that have been made around that particular 6 officer or member of staff's career. 7 Often, those seem to sound reasonable -- I have just 8 made the point, they should be made in a different way, 9 but having seen that, clearly we do not then want to go 10 to an employment tribunal and then just go all through 11 that. Having provided that, we would be looking to say, 12 "Well, does that not resolve it for you? What else do 13 you need then, if it does not, to make the thing go 14 away, how can we put this right?" So we will be having 15 that kind of dialogue, and obviously an important 16 message for our learning material is about, "This is how 17 it went wrong in this particular case, learn from it and 18 move on". 19 MISS WEEKES: And you have mentioned that the issue is the 20 same really in race cases: lack of communication for 21 a decision that is made that leaves a black officer, 22 a visible ethnic minority officer, with the view that he 23 or she was unfairly treated; that is your view. 24 MS CROWTHER: It is a huge generalisation, but that is the 25 recurring theme, I feel, yes. 93 1 MISS WEEKES: What is the one successful step -- there may 2 be many more, but give me an example of a successful 3 step that has been taken to remedy what has brought 4 gender and race issues to employment tribunals? What 5 can we take on board as a success? 6 MS CROWTHER: Do you mean an example of a particular case 7 where -- 8 MISS WEEKES: An example of a step that has been taken by 9 management through perhaps your assistance to remedy or 10 rather to prevent race and gender cases being taken to 11 ETs. 12 MS CROWTHER: Recently, we had two gender discrimination 13 cases where officers felt they had been disadvantaged 14 under the police promotion process. 15 When we examined that, we felt that there were 16 possibly some issues there. So as part of settlement 17 negotiations, what we actually arranged was for the 18 promotion applications for those particular officers to 19 be re-examined by an independent panel, to see what the 20 decision would have been, and the officers were 21 satisfied with this process. 22 We also organised that they would have access to 23 a senior woman officer to talk about their experiences, 24 because whilst I think that was the catalyst for the ET, 25 there was a lot of background and dissatisfaction about 94 1 how they felt women were viewed on their particular OCU, 2 and we wanted to deal with that. Local management were 3 involved in that process as well. There had been some 4 changes there, so they were alive to the need to make 5 some cultural changes, I think, at the borough 6 concerned. So that process was engineered, it produced 7 an outcome that was acceptable to the women officers 8 concerned, and we avoided the employment tribunals. 9 MISS WEEKES: An example of a successful step to improve the 10 race issues. 11 MS CROWTHER: Can you just give me a moment to think about 12 it? 13 MISS WEEKES: Of course. (Pause). Do feel free to say that 14 there have not been, if there have not been. 15 MS CROWTHER: I am sure there are lots, it is just trying to 16 think of a good example. Could I come back to that at 17 the end, is that all right? I do not want to hold you 18 up -- 19 MISS WEEKES: That is fine. I think if you want a bit of 20 thinking time, there is no difficulty with that. Can 21 I move on to just a point on staff survey, because you 22 mentioned it in your report, and it is at page 1/79; we 23 are just going to bring that up on the screen for you. 24 Just give it a moment. (Pause). 25 If I can read it to you, it comes out of the audit 95 1 for 2000/2001, and actually, if you wanted to look at 2 it, it is at your page 1/79. It is responses and sample 3 of comments from line managers survey. 4 MS CROWTHER: I do not think I have that. 5 MISS WEEKES: That is all right. May I just pass it to you? 6 I have rather helpfully highlighted what I would like to 7 look at. I will just give you a moment to look at that. 8 (Pause). That is what managers are saying, and if I can 9 have it back, I will read it. 10 MS CROWTHER: Of course. 11 MISS WEEKES: Thank you very much. They say this: 12 "There are too many areas to source advice. There 13 should be a point of contact -- civil staff." 14 So I hope I have interpreted that correctly. 15 Managers are saying, "There are too many different 16 sources to go for advice, for the civil staff", and they 17 just want one point of contact, a one stop shop. Is 18 that right? 19 MS CROWTHER: Yes, I think that is right, and I think it is 20 something that the HR directorate have taken on board. 21 This report is a couple of years or even more old now, 22 and I believe that they have moved to having that kind 23 of one stop shop, helpdesk approach. Now that, of 24 course, does not embrace our side of things, because we 25 sit outside of the HR function. 96 1 But I would say that when we were part of it, going 2 back a few years now, that we did try something along 3 these lines, and it did not work terribly well, because 4 I think that the specialised nature of the work of my 5 unit leads to my team having quite specific knowledge, 6 and when we went in with a much wider group of people 7 covering all bases on HR, the quality of the advice 8 people were getting when they rang up depended very much 9 on the background of who answered the phone, so it was 10 a bit patchy, if I can put it that way. 11 So I can see, you know, what people are saying they 12 want, but I think there is a danger they will not get 13 the quality if we try to have generalists dealing with 14 it. 15 MISS WEEKES: So is there a one stop shop at the moment? 16 MS CROWTHER: Within HR, I believe there is, for the matters 17 that they would be assisting with. 18 MISS WEEKES: How is that working? 19 MS CROWTHER: I am afraid I do not know. 20 MISS WEEKES: I just want to move to the recommendations in 21 that report, that is the audit report, to see how they 22 are coming along. If you move to your page 83 -- 23 I appreciate this is a little dated, this report, but it 24 is a matter of finding out how the recommendations are 25 going. There are two examples of what I call high level 97 1 recommendations, they both have a "3" on them, and I am 2 looking at R7; it says: 3 "Up-to-date policies and procedures need to be 4 publicised and available through the intranet." 5 Is that now happening adequately, as far as you are 6 concerned? 7 MS CROWTHER: Yes, that is the case. Clearly this was 8 a recommendation that was more around HR policies 9 than particularly the work of my unit, but yes, a good 10 deal has been done. Most personnel policies are now 11 available on the intranet, and certainly the website for 12 my unit has the links to the key policy documents, so 13 they are there and they are available. 14 MISS WEEKES: The other point at R8: 15 "There is a need for up-to-date advice and guidance 16 for all line managers. This is best owned from 17 a central point, to ensure consistency of information." 18 Is that happening? 19 MS CROWTHER: Yes, as you can see, that recommendation was 20 accepted, and I think to some extent, even at that time, 21 that was a role that my unit was fulfilling. I think it 22 needed to be clear that that was on the employment 23 tribunal side, and the issues and learning arising from 24 that. It was not an all embracing advisory role on any 25 HR matter. Clearly that would be beyond the scope of 98 1 what we could deliver from the ET unit. 2 MISS WEEKES: Can I just ask, because this will come into 3 play some time during 2004, this year, and it is the 4 effect of the equal treatment directive which now brings 5 in discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, 6 religion or belief. Are the Met ready to deal with 7 this? 8 MS CROWTHER: Yes, I think we are reasonably well prepared. 9 There has been a certain amount of guidance put out from 10 the diversity directorate. I know information is 11 available to all members of the organisation through the 12 intranet. We have already had a couple of claims on 13 those areas, so we are going to be learning very 14 rapidly, I think. I think we are reasonably well 15 prepared, because those matters, although they are new 16 in terms of the legislation, are matters that were 17 reflected in MPS equal opportunities policy and have 18 been for many years. So it should not be that managers 19 are required to do anything different, they should be 20 managing those situations fairly in any case, so it is 21 not new territory in that way. 22 MISS WEEKES: We are, of course, going to hear from other 23 representative groups that might include issues of 24 religion and belief, for example, but do you think that 25 the representative groups in general, like the groups 99 1 for women, ethnic minorities, religion, do understand 2 and appreciate the steps that are being taken by the 3 Metropolitan Police to improve the workplace 4 relationship? 5 People are never completely satisfied, of course, 6 let me add that. But do you get feedback from them that 7 they do understand the steps that have been taken, and 8 are they supporting those steps? 9 MS CROWTHER: From those groups that I come into contact 10 with, and I would say that I do not have a lot of 11 contact, it tends to be through a number of particular 12 fora, I think there is a fairly positive attitude at the 13 way the organisation is responding to the developments, 14 and I think they can see a role for them working with us 15 as they have been for a number of years now to improve 16 our awareness around these things, and make sure things 17 are as well managed as they can be. 18 MISS WEEKES: One of the things you have mentioned is that 19 the regular meetings with the BPA have floundered 20 because -- and I think it is hinted in your 21 submission -- the representatives do not always manage 22 to get to the meetings. That is regrettable, is it not? 23 MS CROWTHER: It is. I should say that that comment is 24 based on something that is a little in the past now. We 25 did have those regular meetings, and that goes back to 100 1 when the BPA was first created, and, you know, that was 2 welcomed. 3 Unfortunately, what was tending to happen was that 4 whilst BPA executive members who worked within the HR 5 function in Regency Street, who tended to be members of 6 police staff, were able to attend, we were not getting 7 the input from operational police officers, which is 8 where the majority of the issues are arising. So that 9 was unfortunate, but these are operational people, and 10 obviously, they have been pulled away for other things. 11 So to be fair, it was getting a little bit cosy, 12 because the person who typically was attending was the 13 deputy chair, who is actually now one of my case 14 managers, who had worked in the personnel function for 15 a long time, and whilst he could present issues of 16 concern coming up through HR and so on, from a police 17 staff perspective, I felt we were losing something. 18 So it was really the decision of BPA at that time to 19 say, "Let us leave this for the time being"; I mean, 20 I appreciate they have so many demands trying to input 21 to so many different meetings and so on, it is very 22 difficult, but, you know, our door is open. 23 We did have a meeting last year involving a couple 24 of their representatives, that brought in George McAnuff 25 on Fairness at Work as well, and we had a useful 101 1 exchange. I see that developing into something more 2 regular. Unfortunately, it has not done so thus far, 3 but that is, I think, more down to the ill-health of one 4 of the people concerned rather than probably any lack of 5 will on anyone's part. 6 MISS WEEKES: And we know you do not have regular meetings 7 with women groups. 8 MS CROWTHER: No, that is right. 9 MISS WEEKES: Thank you. 10 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Well, Ms Crowther, thank you very much 11 indeed. It seems to us a suitable point to adjourn, our 12 transcript writers at least need to have the necessary 13 rest, so can I suggest that we reconvene at 2.15, 14 please? Thank you very much. 15 (1.25 pm) 16 (The short adjournment) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 1 (2.15 pm) 2 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Right, welcome back. 3 MS CROWTHER: Thank you. 4 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: We restart with Sir Anthony Burden, 5 with one or two questions he would like to put to you. 6 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN 7 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Did you want to come back, Ms Crowther, 8 on the point raised by Ms Weekes about the BPA case or 9 the minority ethnic case? 10 MS CROWTHER: Thank you, Sir Anthony, I think I will put 11 that down to being in need of refreshment! 12 There are some examples in my submission, one at 13 paragraph 19 and another at paragraph 20, where there 14 were interventions in cases which had become employment 15 tribunals, and where steps were taken to show some 16 flexibility and encourage the applicant, in fact, in 17 both cases, to make a future within the MPS. 18 Another case, another race case, I would like to 19 refer to was one that involved a member of staff from 20 the diversity directorate. As part of the resolution of 21 her particular case, she was involved in work by 22 consultants looking at the policy around family liaison 23 officers; that was a role that she had been involved in, 24 and she felt she had some particular points to make that 25 would greatly enhance the work of that project, so that 2 1 was facilitated. There were a number of other issues 2 about good people management practices within diversity, 3 and all of those were facilitated, and she was satisfied 4 as part of the resolution of that employment tribunal 5 which was eventually withdrawn. So just to make 6 reference to those, thank you. 7 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: If I could ask then, are statistics 8 being kept anywhere within the organisation which would 9 identify particular patterns of behaviour by managers 10 lead to ET claims? 11 MS CROWTHER: I suppose that would come out of the data that 12 we keep about the nature of the issues complained of in 13 the employment tribunal, so yes, that information is 14 there, and I think I mentioned earlier that we classify 15 those claims -- it is difficult to group them, because 16 every case is very much individual, but as far as 17 possible, we do try to broadly group them, so there is 18 information. 19 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: But if a particular manager or 20 a particular management style of a borough, for example, 21 appeared to be leading to a disproportionate number of 22 employment tribunals, would you be able to flag that and 23 bring it to the notice of HR or whoever, so that it 24 could be fed back for some form of behavioural change? 25 MS CROWTHER: Yes, most definitely. There are a number of 3 1 ways that that would happen. We do provide data on 2 a business group basis, so that information would get 3 that kind of overview to senior managers within the 4 group, to see if there were particular patterns, be it 5 on a location basis or a particular theme, such as 6 perhaps people complaining about unfair selection for 7 training opportunities or something like that. 8 So it is done on a business group basis, but it is 9 also done as part of DPS, through the strategic 10 intelligence desk; we feed location and theme 11 information into that desk, and that forms part of 12 a general picture covering all the areas of DPS 13 activity, so it could be about complaints, misconduct 14 and so on. 15 Then that is analysed, and if particular issues come 16 out of that, then the way forward is determined. What 17 is needed: is it further analysis, particular sorts of 18 interventions? And I can think of, in one particular 19 case, a borough was highlighted, and we did a lot of 20 detailed work then to see what were the issues in their 21 particular employment tribunals, amongst other matters, 22 because they were featuring highly in a number of 23 different respects. 24 So we can drill down into it and develop some sort 25 of positive programme for the borough or business group 4 1 OCU concerned, depending upon the nature of what is 2 identified. 3 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: And having identified it, was that 4 followed through to your satisfaction in terms of trying 5 to put some remedial exercises or whatever in place in 6 relation to that borough? 7 MS CROWTHER: I think time will tell. In the particular 8 case, we had delivered a number of workshops for first 9 line managers, both police officers and police staff at 10 the particular location. I do not believe there have 11 been any further employment tribunal claims from that 12 particular location. That could be explained by all 13 manner of things, I am sure our input, perhaps, is just 14 one factor in that, but that was the approach taken in 15 that case. 16 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you. Could we have your views, 17 please, on the proportionality of the Metropolitan 18 Police Service black and visible ethnic minority staff 19 taking tribunal cases; and secondly, having sort of 20 taken that step, could you give us a feel behind the 21 statistics as to the general trend of underlying causes? 22 MS CROWTHER: Well, the proportionality in terms of the 23 total number of employment tribunal claims, I think we 24 are running at something like 35 per cent on grounds of 25 race, a similar number on sex, and the remaining 5 1 30 per cent are divided between race and sex together, 2 discrimination claims, and all the other employment 3 areas, such as unfair dismissal. So that is the data. 4 Clearly, that is significant, because if we have 5 a comparable number of race claims to sex claims, and 6 yet we have a far smaller proportion of minority ethnic 7 officers and staff within the organisation than we do 8 females, then there is disproportionality there, and 9 that is recognised. Hence all the positive work, the 10 diversity directorate, et cetera, and the Home Office 11 piece of research that DPS has commissioned to look 12 into: what is the explanation for this? 13 As I mentioned earlier, approximately half the ETs 14 we receive already have an internal investigation in 15 progress. Now that may be into the conduct of the 16 applicant, or it may be into the allegations made by the 17 applicant, but I think that piece of research will be 18 very helpful to us in informing what is underlying that 19 apparent disproportionality, and telling us how we can 20 go forward in addressing it. 21 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Yes, thank you, we were told about 22 that. Can I just move on to external mediation? 23 Because it is something which has been spoken about by 24 quite a few people, either in submission form or here 25 before us. 6 1 We are really looking at two elements: one is a sort 2 of final steps solution, which would involve something 3 like an ombudsman, but the other suggestion is that we 4 need some -- or we need to consider some form of 5 external mediation or resolution early on in that sort 6 of golden hour, and you will have heard me refer to that 7 this morning. 8 Can I have your views, please, as to how useful you 9 feel that will be, bringing in that external element to 10 try and resolve really at the borough stage or at the 11 directorate stage? 12 MS CROWTHER: I would welcome it. I think anything that 13 will assist us in trying to resolve these, I would like 14 to try it out and see how useful it is. It is something 15 that we are adopting at the moment. We have external 16 mediation, the final stage that you referred to, in 17 place for a particular employment tribunal in a few 18 weeks' time, so we are optimistic that will deliver 19 a positive outcome for us and for the applicant. 20 So I think in a small number of cases, where we are 21 unable to reach a conciliation with the individual, that 22 it is something that would be beneficial. 23 I think George McAnuff yesterday mentioned that at 24 one of the early points of the Fairness at Work 25 procedure, there is the option to go in that route, and 7 1 it again may be the case that for some particular sets 2 of issues, that will be the best way of managing them. 3 But I think we must be cautious, because we are 4 an organisation of 44,000 people or thereabouts; I think 5 we have a lot of skills within the organisation. People 6 can be found who are independent of the particular 7 issues and individuals in some of these cases, and 8 I think we should make best use of the skills within the 9 organisation before considering the external option, and 10 of course there is the cost implication if we start to 11 go outside on a regular basis. 12 But yes, certainly, it is an option, and it is 13 something that we have always considered, and there have 14 been cases that we have taken to mediation. I am aware 15 that there is a major project between Fairness at Work 16 and the diversity directorate specifically on this 17 point, looking at use of external mediators, and also 18 training up a group of people in-house who would take on 19 this kind of role. So it is something under active 20 consideration. 21 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you. Can I just show you part of 22 a submission from the MET-TUS -- I will let it come up 23 on the screen. It is under the heading of, "Women in 24 the organisation", 7.5; perhaps I can leave you just to 25 read that for a second. (Pause). 8 1 I just want to test that out, if I may. Is that 2 something that you are seeing evidenced through ET 3 claims at all? 4 MS CROWTHER: No, it would be wrong to say that we had not 5 had the issue of part-time working brought up in an 6 employment tribunal claim, but I do not believe I have 7 seen any for some considerable time, and the one I am 8 particularly bringing to mind, we actually successfully 9 defended. 10 I am surprised that the trade union are expressing 11 this view; I am a part-time worker, half my unit are 12 part-time. Any intention on the part of management to 13 refuse a request for part-time working has to be 14 discussed with me or a member of my team, and I do not 15 get very many of those. 16 Now whether that is because people do not feel 17 comfortable even raising the issue with their line 18 management in the first place, I do not know, but I have 19 the impression that the organisation is quite receptive 20 to alternative working patterns. It has been a policy 21 position for a long time -- I think we were amongst the 22 first forces, in respect of police officers, to agree to 23 part-time working, and particularly in respect of 24 probationers, we took that step to introduce it, even 25 though regulations did not permit it, because it was 9 1 clearly a matter of sex discrimination. 2 So it is some years since we had those options 3 available to us -- I am talking about police officers, 4 and I know you are specifically referring to the police 5 staff trade unions there, but my perspective is that the 6 organisation has a positive record in alternative 7 working arrangements. And if the unions feel 8 differently, I would be very interested if they could 9 present me with particular examples, and I would like to 10 get into what that is all about, and are there some 11 messages that we need to be putting out about how 12 managers are responding to those type of requests? 13 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Can I just clarify something you said 14 there. You said managers would have to discuss it with 15 you or a member of your team; is that only in relation 16 to your unit, or do you have a role particularly within 17 the organisation? 18 MS CROWTHER: That is corporately: any requests where the 19 intention is to turn down -- so that we can test what 20 are the justifications, are they objective, will it 21 stand the tribunal's scrutiny? Because clearly the 22 potential -- because most of these cases will be 23 females, and probably for reasons of childcare and so 24 on, part-time workers typically are female, so the 25 potential is there for sex discrimination claims; we 10 1 want to make sure that a reasonable management decision 2 is being taken, and one that the service can defend. 3 I would rather do that at the outset, rather than 4 when we have got the employment tribunal, and then find 5 this was not a reasonable position to have taken. It 6 does not show the degree of flexibility that one would 7 wish to see. 8 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Well, I am pleased your unit is 9 offering that advice, but is that not a mainstream HR 10 function? 11 MS CROWTHER: Well, I think it has its roots in when we were 12 part of the HR function. 13 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So you have retained that -- 14 MS CROWTHER: We have retained that, yes, because I think 15 the HR policy unit felt it did not have the exposure to 16 what would be the justification; we have that because of 17 our role dealing with the employment tribunals, and how 18 they would view any rejection. 19 So when the policy was drafted around flexible 20 working, the request was made or the direction, I should 21 say, for managers to seek the advice of my unit if they 22 were likely to be refusing any such request. 23 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Are there any other residual 24 responsibilities you have which are mainstream HR? 25 MS CROWTHER: I cannot think of anything specific -- I am 11 1 looking at my colleague over there -- at the moment, but 2 I think we do provide quite a lot of guidance, written 3 and telephone guidance, on the spectrum of HR related 4 matters based on our particular experience, and that is 5 in addition to what the HR directorate is providing. 6 But I think it is because we are known to have a lot of 7 experience in that area, and people will come to us 8 because they know that that is a useful thing for them 9 to do, probably in addition to what the HR directorate 10 can provide them with; covering all bases, perhaps. 11 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So your perception would be that they 12 would also go to HR? 13 MS CROWTHER: Yes. 14 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Hopefully. 15 MS CROWTHER: I think so, yes. 16 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Okay, thank you very much indeed. 17 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Miss Weekes has one last question for 18 you. 19 Further questions by MISS WEEKES 20 MISS WEEKES: I should have allowed you to comment on 21 a question I put to the legal department about there 22 being a trend -- it may be small -- that you are now 23 receiving employment law tribunal cases from white 24 officers who allege discrimination; is that right? 25 MS CROWTHER: Yes, that is right. 12 1 MISS WEEKES: What is the extent of it? 2 MS CROWTHER: There is not a significant number of cases, 3 but there have been regular cases received over the 4 years on that basis. 5 MISS WEEKES: What is the response from the MPS on that? Is 6 it a communication problem, as you have indicated, on 7 race and gender? 8 MS CROWTHER: I think that may be part of it. I think often 9 what happens in those particular cases is that there is 10 a perception from the officers that they are being 11 unfairly treated following a complaint perhaps by 12 a minority ethnic colleague, and that the MPS response 13 to that complaint, if indeed it is a complaint at all -- 14 and that is an issue in some cases -- is unfair and 15 disproportionate. 16 So then we find ourselves into a race discrimination 17 case from a white officer. There have been a number on 18 that sort of basis over the year, albeit a fairly small 19 number, but some of those have been caught up in the 20 Liversidge difficulty, and I think in fact of the 15 or 21 so cases, race cases that have been running for more 22 than two years, seven were from white officers. 23 MISS WEEKES: And what steps have been taken to deal with 24 what clearly is a little bit of a growing trend? 25 MS CROWTHER: Well, on the same basis we would approach any 13 1 other case, it is obviously very much on what are the 2 circumstances: is there any opportunity to resolve it 3 without the need for it to proceed towards a tribunal? 4 All I can say really is that they are treated on the 5 same basis as others. 6 There have been efforts to explain the rationale for 7 whatever action has been taken, to show that it was 8 reasonable and proportionate, but clearly officers have 9 not been satisfied by those explanations and have chosen 10 to proceed. 11 MISS WEEKES: Thank you for your help. 12 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Ms Crowther, that completes the series 13 of questions that myself and my colleagues wanted to put 14 to you. But I did say at the start of my truncated 15 introduction that you will be offered one last 16 opportunity to make a closing statement, if you so wish, 17 so if you do, this is your moment. 18 MS CROWTHER: Okay, thank you. Before I do that, I would 19 perhaps, if I may, just come back on a question that 20 Miss Weekes put to my colleagues, or a point she made, 21 concerning sharing the information that an employment 22 tribunal has been lodged; you were left with the 23 impression, I think, from my submission that it went 24 round a lot of people in the organisation. 25 I would not want to leave you with that impression. 14 1 The information, the ET1, is really only shared with the 2 personnel manager where the individual works. It is 3 sent out on a confidential footing, and it is very much 4 down to them to decide which of the senior management 5 colleagues and any others need to be put in the picture; 6 there could be issues about the welfare support 7 management of the individual, but also for those 8 colleagues who might be named in the application, 9 parties complained about. What we want to avoid is the 10 first they learn of this is a phone call from our legal 11 services department, asking them up to make a statement, 12 when they did not even know there was any form of 13 complaint. So that is that local management. 14 The only other person is the business manager for 15 that particular work area, who has strategic 16 responsibility for the employment tribunals, and needs 17 to be picking up any themes or location issues, and also 18 could be involved in the diamond risk management group, 19 so they would be expected to be aware that a new 20 tribunal has been received. I just wanted to come back 21 and explain that, thank you. 22 As a closing statement, what I would like to do is 23 simply quote from the front page of our website, and 24 this has been in place on the MPS intranet for round 25 about two and a half years. I hope it demonstrates 15 1 that, throughout, we have been committed to early 2 intervention and certainly are not in the business of 3 letting tribunal claims drag on if we can avoid that. 4 What I say there is: 5 "It is imperative that as part of our mission to 6 make London safe for all the people we serve, we do not 7 neglect the safety and needs of our colleagues in the 8 workplace. We must treat everyone fairly, be open and 9 honest and prepared to justify our decisions when 10 challenged. We should not be defensive when individuals 11 take up legitimate channels to raise their concerns. We 12 should be responsive and creative in trying to find 13 workable solutions wherever possible." 14 Moving on from that, I do believe, based on my 15 exposure to the many situations involving internal 16 conflict and challenge over the years, that the vast 17 majority of MPS managers are entirely committed to those 18 sentiments, and every day do their utmost to achieve 19 fair treatment and dignity at work for colleagues from 20 all our internal communities. 21 Sometimes, we do not get things quite right, and we 22 need to be smarter at acknowledging this at an early 23 stage, putting matters right and moving on, but 24 95 per cent of the time, our managers are doing 25 everything we would expect and more. 16 1 If that point does not come across to you as the 2 Inquiry panel from having heard from members of the MPS, 3 seen our report, seen our data, then I think we will 4 have failed you and failed the managers out there who 5 are doing a very good job. 6 Just finally, I would like to pay tribute to my 7 small dedicated team in the ET unit who deal with a 8 highly contentious area of work in unfavourable working 9 conditions. They perform their role without thanks when 10 things go well, a great deal of criticism when things 11 appear to go badly, but always with considerable 12 professionalism and commitment. Thank you very much. 13 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you. We are trying expand your 14 team! 15 MS CROWTHER: Yes, please! 16 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Before you go, could I just for the 17 record say that as with all our witnesses, Ms Crowther, 18 it may be that once we have heard from other witnesses, 19 we will want to ask you a few more questions, either by 20 writing to you or asking you to come back and see us. 21 If we feel the need to do that, we will try and do 22 so in a way which minimises any inconvenience at all to 23 you, but for the moment, it just leaves me, on behalf of 24 my colleagues and myself, to thank you for coming and 25 thank you for the contribution that you are making to 17 1 our Inquiry. Thank you very much.