13 MS CAROL HOWLETT 14 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Good afternoon, Ms Howlett. 15 MS HOWLETT: Good afternoon, sir. 16 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you for coming, and thank you for 17 accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry and to 18 give evidence, and thank you also for letting us have 19 your written submission. 20 MS HOWLETT: Thank you for the opportunity. 21 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: We have found it extremely helpful. 22 Can I say that we do appreciate that some of our 23 witnesses coming to this process may find it a little 24 bit daunting, so I thought it would be helpful if I set 25 out very briefly the way that I propose to conduct the 82 1 hearing. 2 But first, let me introduce myself and the other 3 members of my panel. I am Bill Morris, the General 4 Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, 5 recently retired. On my left, we have Miss Anesta 6 Weekes; Anesta is in fact a QC, a distinguished 7 barrister. She serves as a recorder and she chairs 8 employment tribunals, and she was in fact counsel to the 9 Lawrence Inquiry. 10 On my right here is somebody who you might have 11 known, Sir Anthony Burden, who has recently retired, so 12 he tells me, after a long very long and distinguished 13 career in the South Wales Constabulary. He makes 14 a significant contribution, in terms of his experience, 15 to our work. 16 Ms Howlett, as you know, we have been tasked by the 17 Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent 18 inquiry into professional standards and employment 19 matters in the Metropolitan Police Service. 20 As I have said on previous occasions, and I will say 21 again, our focus is the MPS as an organisation, and not 22 the individuals who make up the organisation. Our 23 approach in conducting the Inquiry is inquisitorial, not 24 adversarial in character or indeed nature. 25 We are extremely keen to enquire into the issues 83 1 raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make 2 the appropriate recommendations for further good 3 practice, rather than concentrating on making criticisms 4 of the MPS as an organisation or individuals within it. 5 To helps us in our task, we are very keen to hear 6 from all our witnesses, not just about what is wrong 7 with the Metropolitan Police Service, but what is right 8 with it; most importantly, we are looking forward for 9 every nugget of suggestion that can make things better. 10 Let me just say for the record that a transcript is 11 being taken, so that we can have a proper record of the 12 evidence that is given to us by all our witnesses, and 13 this will be posted on our website later today. 14 At the end of these introductory comments from me, 15 I will lead on the questions, followed by my colleagues 16 Miss Weekes and Sir Anthony, and indeed any 17 supplementary questions that I might find necessary. 18 At the conclusion of our questions, I will offer you 19 the opportunity for a brief closing comment. 20 In your written submission which will be posted on 21 the website, you have indicated to us some very 22 interesting pointers. Just for the record, I will 23 repeat: you have indicated the role and purpose of the 24 association of senior women officers, and the 25 involvement of senior women officers in policy 84 1 development, and the gender forum of senior women 2 officers' intranet sites, and of course, most 3 importantly for us, you have identified what is listed 4 as the challenge ahead. 5 We would like to ask you some questions on these and 6 other matters, but before we raise these issues, 7 however, for the benefit of the transcript, would you 8 mind formally introducing yourself, please, to the 9 Inquiry? 10 MS HOWLETT: I am Carol Howlett, a Deputy Assistant 11 Commissioner in the Metropolitan Police, and I am Chief 12 of Staff to the Commissioner, Sir John Stevens. 13 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you very much. 14 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS 15 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Can I start by saying I know you have 16 read our terms of reference, and no doubt you have 17 followed the progress of our Inquiry to a certain 18 extent, in any event. With this in mind, and taking 19 account of your association's very particular and indeed 20 special concerns, I wonder if you would mind setting out 21 your association's view about what is the most important 22 contribution you believe that your members' experience 23 can make to our Inquiry? 24 MS HOWLETT: I think there are a number of areas, and 25 a number were touched on in evidence that my previous 85 1 colleague gave; one of which, importantly, is that of 2 being visible role models. It has really hit me very 3 hard over the last few years, as I have sort of risen up 4 through the ranks, how important middle and senior 5 ranking women are as role models to more junior 6 colleagues coming up through the organisation. 7 Time and again it has been said to me, "Oh perhaps 8 if you can do it", or if another colleague, for example, 9 who has just taken over in Special Branch, a female 10 colleague, or who has just taken over as head of the 11 Flying Squad, "If they can do it, then perhaps I can 12 too". 13 Hearing them speak and hearing the challenges that 14 they have had to overcome, and how they have managed to 15 balance work/life commitments, gives others the 16 confidence to do the same. Because it is quite clear to 17 me that one of the issues for women within the police 18 service, one amongst many, but one is that generally 19 speaking, there is a lack of confidence in women 20 actually pushing themselves forward, either for 21 promotion or for specialist posts. 22 A real issue is encouraging women to do that, 23 because it is my experience also that if you can get 24 a woman to the starting blocks, they actually tend to do 25 very well indeed, but it is actually getting them there 86 1 in the first place that is difficult. So role models, 2 I think, are very important. 3 Secondly, I think the association has a real role in 4 terms of what I might call gender-proofing policies and 5 papers, and what is happening now, which I am very 6 pleased is happening now, is that papers as a matter of 7 course are now coming to me, and the authors are asking 8 for comments from a woman's perspective. 9 What I am able to do, because the organisation is 10 now over 60 strong -- I am able to identify groups of 11 female officers who have particular expertise in that 12 area, to actually read through the paper and offer their 13 comments, and those are then fed back, which I think is 14 an important area. 15 I think it is also important that the organisation 16 is very visible in terms of sitting on selection boards, 17 recruitment boards, in terms of being very visible by 18 way of appearing in the media. 19 Particularly, I think, and this is an important 20 issue not just talking about women's issues, but talking 21 about operational issues -- so there is a whole range of 22 areas, I think, where the association has been able to 23 raise the profile of women's issues. 24 In February last year, for the very first time, we 25 hosted the Senior Women Officers Conference in London. 87 1 That was the biggest event ever of that kind, and it had 2 policewomen from right across the country, it was 3 a really exciting event, but the strapline for that was 4 "Creative leadership, I can do that", and this again was 5 all about encouraging women to have the confidence to 6 put themselves forward. 7 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I said earlier, and I perhaps ought to 8 repeat again, that diversity is the watchword, it is the 9 paradigm by which we hope to widen participation for 10 underrepresented groups in the Met, but it is not just 11 a throw away line, it needs to have an intellectual 12 resonance for it to be meaningful within any 13 institution. 14 How do you see diversity in the Met from that 15 perspective? 16 MS HOWLETT: I have heard, sir, you talk about diversity 17 being a thread, a golden thread that should go through 18 everything, and I think we have started to look at it in 19 that way. I was trying to think of instances that 20 perhaps I could draw on to support that. 21 If we now look at promotion processes, if we now 22 look at selection processes, if we look at annual 23 appraisals, diversity in the broadest sense features 24 very strongly as a competency in all those areas. So 25 I think officers and police staff are very aware that 88 1 diversity is an important issue as far as the 2 organisation is concerned, because it has such a high 3 profile, in processes and systems that are important to 4 them as individuals and important to the organisation. 5 I think also that diversity is being threaded more 6 and more into training generally, certainly into recruit 7 training, which I think is a key area, but generally 8 into training courses, for sergeants, for inspectors, it 9 is a key area there. And I know you have already heard 10 evidence about community and race relations training, 11 and how all staff have been put through that particular 12 training. 13 All papers now that go to management board or go to 14 the Metropolitan Police Authority have to state what the 15 diversity and equal opportunities impact is of the 16 policies or the proposals in those particular papers, 17 again to ensure that that is very much to the fore when 18 thinking of new policies. 19 There is a tremendous investment in independent 20 advisory groups, both at a corporate level but also at a 21 local level on the borough as well, to ensure that the 22 diversity issues are considered, not only in the 23 development of policy, but indeed in terms of critical 24 incidents, or in terms of operational matters. 25 I think the deputy also, Sir Ian Blair, has a key 89 1 role here. He has a responsibility for diversity within 2 the organisation. He ensures, as a key member in 3 management board, that it is focal in all the 4 discussions that take place, at their SMT meetings three 5 times a week, and their management board meetings 6 monthly. He also now chairs the new national 7 intelligence model, so again, he ensures that in that 8 very operational way, diversity is very much to the fore 9 of those discussions. 10 You know, even when we are thinking about budget 11 setting, the GLA budget setting, for example, we are now 12 required to show that we spend approximately 5 per cent 13 of the budget on diversity issues within the Met. So 14 I think when you look at some of the key processes and 15 policies and systems that operate currently within the 16 Met, diversity is threaded into them. 17 It may not be as coherent as it should be, and 18 I think perhaps that is what we may need to look at. 19 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: It is a tool, is it not? Part of 20 a process to certain specific outcomes that we would all 21 want to share. 22 MS HOWLETT: Yes. 23 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: But your experience, and from the 24 vantage point at which you overlook the development, not 25 just of women but other representative groups -- I am 90 1 going to venture to suggest that you might want to agree 2 that we are not there yet. 3 MS HOWLETT: No. 4 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: What would be the critical point when 5 you think yes, we have not reached utopia, but we are 6 well on the road? 7 MS HOWLETT: I think at a stage when the organisation is no 8 longer tolerant of, no longer accepts any sort of 9 stereotypical behaviour or language, any sort of 10 bullying or inappropriate language or behaviour, and 11 that everybody in the organisation is of one mind that 12 that is not acceptable within the Metropolitan Police 13 Service. That is internally. 14 And externally, I think when all communities across 15 London feel that we as the Metropolitan Police are 16 working with them and for them to deliver the sort of 17 society that we all want; at that time, I think we will 18 have reached a successful conclusion. 19 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: We have heard evidence, and it sort of 20 anecdotally suggests like almost -- in some respects, 21 not general, but in some respects, like a two-tier 22 force, there is the leadership and middle ranking and 23 whatever, but somewhere going towards the lower ranks, 24 the golden thread has not yet found its way down there 25 in terms of attitude, behaviour, expectation, respect, 91 1 all the things that we bring to work to make the 2 Metropolitan Police Service a better place. 3 How do you see all of us in diversity as a tool, 4 penetrating from the top through to the middle down to 5 that critical point where it really matters, because 6 that represents as near as to the frontline as you are 7 going to get, which is where the MPS will be judged, 8 ultimately? 9 MS HOWLETT: Absolutely, and I think there are two broad 10 areas. I think one is around interpersonal skills, 11 particularly of frontline staff, because that is clearly 12 the important contact between the police and the people 13 of London, and that is about continued investment, 14 I think, in training; it is about continued investment 15 in career and personal development. 16 But equally important at the same time, it is about 17 leadership; and it is about leadership from the top, and 18 I think you have already heard a lot of evidence of the 19 really dynamic leadership that the Commissioner and 20 management board give, but it is also about leadership 21 by sergeants, inspectors and other ranks and grades. 22 I was disappointed to hear recently from a female 23 colleague who had gone out from the Yard to a borough at 24 a sergeant level; we were chatting, and she came back 25 and said to me, "You know, I was really upset that there 92 1 seemed to be an acceptance of sexist behaviour and 2 language". She said that was compounded by the fact 3 that male sergeants were not challenging it, and of 4 course, by not challenging it, they were condoning it. 5 So there is something there for me very much about 6 giving first line supervisors, who after all are the 7 people who are going to set the tone and set the 8 atmosphere on teams, giving them the confidence to 9 challenge, in the sure knowledge that the organisation 10 will support them around that. And that is a real 11 cultural change issue, and it is about, you know, the 12 experiences of officers and staff out there, and how we 13 make those experiences better. It is something about 14 support, confidence and believing that they will be 15 supported, even if, as you were talking earlier, they 16 may make a mistake. 17 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Clearly we have seen a lot of evidence 18 where a lot of people in the Met are working hard, 19 driving to widen participation for underrepresented 20 groups, women being one of those underrepresented 21 groups. 22 Yesterday, when the director of human resources, 23 Mr Hogan-Howe, gave evidence to this Inquiry, we 24 explored with him one of the many propositions in his 25 written submission; perhaps we can just bring up what he 93 1 says. Paragraph 137 of his submission, BHH 1/50. He 2 says there that there appear to be insufficient female 3 officers and staff climbing the career ladder; well, we 4 knew that. But he went on to say -- he talks further 5 about trying to find solutions to this, and he goes on 6 to indicate and suggest perhaps direct entry for police 7 officers at all levels of the service. 8 He then goes on to indicate that perhaps streaming 9 could in fact be one of the tools as a method of trying 10 to correct the imbalance, and widen participation. 11 What I would like to ask is: what is your 12 association's view about streaming? Would it see it as 13 helpful or divisive? Is it an advantage or not? We 14 would like to hear from you on that point. 15 MS HOWLETT: I think there would be benefits in exploring 16 that more. I think it is all about being much more 17 flexible. It is not only around streaming and 18 multi-point entry, because I do support that, but it is 19 also about being much more flexible in terms of working 20 arrangements as well, encouraging much more 21 flexiworking, and making sure that managers support much 22 more flexible working practices. 23 I still think that managers feel that staff who want 24 to want part-time, or who want to work flexihours, are 25 a little bit of a nuisance actually, because it means it 94 1 is another management challenge for them, and I think 2 there is a real cultural issue there about being much 3 more flexible around that. 4 I think there is also issues about how we support -- 5 and it is all members of staff, but it is primarily 6 women, because it is primarily women who have the caring 7 responsibilities for children and elderly relatives; 8 there is something about the organisation doing more to 9 support childcare arrangements, to support women who are 10 on career breaks, to keep in contact with them, to look 11 at how perhaps they could do a few hours a week while 12 they are on career breaks or maternity breaks, because 13 the vast majority of people who are on career breaks are 14 in fact women. 15 Equally, when women are on maternity leave too, so 16 for me, it is all around flexibility and not being so 17 rigid as we have been in the past, but I actually think 18 there is a lot to be said for the multi-point entry that 19 Mr Hogan-Howe I know was advocating. 20 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Multi-point entry; of course, one of 21 the points that he identified is the question of 22 opportunity for that, and you have to maintain morale. 23 MS HOWLETT: Yes. 24 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: You cannot sort of just parachute in 25 without opportunity for open and equal competition as 95 1 part of the process. 2 MS HOWLETT: Absolutely. 3 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: But for a uniform service which is 4 steeped in its history, culture and tradition, it is not 5 just about the technical skills that you bring, it is 6 this recognition of peer solidarity. The concept of -- 7 what the constable means in reality, I need not put it 8 no different than that. 9 How do you think we could have multi-point entry 10 without losing the culture and the application of what 11 the office of constable brings to the service, not just 12 at constable level, but as you go -- up, because you do 13 not lose it, it just becomes a greater responsibility: 14 that concept, the ethos and the culture of the service. 15 How do you get that, and get the professional skills or 16 whatever it is that you need to widen participation? 17 MS HOWLETT: I mean, it is clearly a real challenge, but 18 I think it is around identifying: what is it that we 19 want a police officer to do in the future? What sort of 20 animal do we want a police officer in the next 10, 15, 21 20 years to be? And identifying the sorts of behaviour, 22 the sorts of experiences, the sorts of skills that we 23 want those individuals to exhibit. 24 And targeting, being quite open about targeting, 25 when we are recruiting, people with those sorts of 96 1 experiences, with those sorts of skills, for particular 2 roles within the police service, and I think in that 3 way, you have the best of both worlds. You have people 4 who are coming up through the grades and ranks who have 5 the experience on the streets; you also have people who 6 are bringing in new perspectives. 7 We are an organisation, I think, over the last few 8 years, who have shown a great willingness to change. It 9 is actually quite difficult to change when we have all 10 come up through 20 or 30 years of police culture. To 11 bring in new people with totally different experiences, 12 who challenge in a constructive way, and who are valued 13 for the particular skills and expertise they bring, 14 I think would be of huge benefit. 15 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Okay, last point from me: let us assume 16 we have consensus, we have established consensus on 17 multi-point entry, and we do what you said, of vibrancy 18 and the evolutionary process of building, and bringing 19 all that richness, and very much I am excited by it. 20 But Mr Hogan-Howe's proposition only relates to 21 women; do you see the same formula, the same model, 22 working for other representative groups, if we were able 23 to reach consensus within the police community, and 24 society generally, really, about multi-point entry? 25 MS HOWLETT: Yes, I do. I think it would bring huge 97 1 benefits. It is not just about bringing perhaps the 2 traditional type of sort of female attitudes within the 3 organisation, but it is about bringing the richness of 4 the broad experiences of all groups of all communities 5 within London within the police service, and that is 6 what we have been struggling to do for so long, with 7 very limited success, and this seems to me something 8 that we should now be trying. 9 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you very much. I now invite 10 Miss Weekes to put her questions. 11 Questions by MISS WEEKES 12 MISS WEEKES: Thank you. Deputy Assistant Commissioner, 13 yours is the first association of women we have met, so 14 we are extremely pleased to hear from you. 15 MS HOWLETT: Thank you. 16 MISS WEEKES: I know you particularly represent senior 17 women, but you make it clear in your submission that in 18 fact you support all women within the 19 Metropolitan Police, and you provide role models 20 throughout the service, so because of the importance of 21 the topic, I am going to perhaps go into a little bit 22 more detail on the whole issue of gender. 23 MS HOWLETT: Yes. 24 MISS WEEKES: There are perhaps in total three 25 organisations -- if I can just run through them, the 98 1 other two are similar, I know. There is yourself and 2 there is also the Metropolitan branch of the British 3 Association of Women in Policing; and there is the 4 Association of Senior Women Officers, which is yourself; 5 and the British Association of Women in Policing; is 6 that right? 7 MS HOWLETT: Yes. 8 MISS WEEKES: Are there any others? 9 MS HOWLETT: There is the ACPO Women's Forum. 10 MISS WEEKES: Yes, of course. And, of course, women will be 11 amongst the other staff associations -- 12 MS HOWLETT: Oh, absolutely. 13 MISS WEEKES: -- of which there are 13 or 14, depending on 14 how you split them. We have heard from two today. 15 Can I ask this: of the four main ones, which would 16 include ACPO, what is the difference between you? 17 I suppose you are going to guess I am going to come on 18 to ask: why can there not be one? 19 MS HOWLETT: Yes. I mean, clearly the Association of Senior 20 Women Officers is only a Metropolitan Police 21 association. The ACPO women is a national police -- the 22 British Association of Women Police is a national police 23 association. So ASWO is specifically focusing on the 24 needs of female officers within the Met. I think that 25 is the sort of main difference. 99 1 Having said that, many, many of the issues that we 2 are all looking at are very, very similar. 3 MISS WEEKES: They must be. 4 MS HOWLETT: Very similar. Childcare arrangements, I have 5 already mentioned; long hours culture; 6 underrepresentation in senior ranks; underrepresentation 7 in some of the specialist departments are all the 8 similar sorts of issues -- we do liaise quite a lot with 9 each other, and there is a lot of overlap. So for 10 example, I am a member of the ACPO Women's Forum, I am 11 also a member of the British Association of Women 12 Police, so there are a lot of linkages there, which 13 I think is quite rich, in a sense. 14 MISS WEEKES: Would you be more powerful, would you have 15 a greater voice if fact you were one organisation, 16 because there would be more immediacy of younger women 17 having role models, sharing what you have clearly 18 identified are similarities and overlaps, and there 19 being a greater force behind your representations to be 20 made to management and the Metropolitan Police Service 21 generally? 22 MS HOWLETT: I think there would be some benefits in that. 23 There may also, however, be a case to be made for 24 an organisation which continues to focus on what it is 25 like to be a female officer in a huge 100 1 Metropolitan Police force. Now although there are 2 similarities clearly with female colleagues in other 3 smaller forces, there are also some unique aspects of 4 working in London and working in a huge organisation as 5 a woman, and I think those perhaps may get lost if we 6 join into one larger organisation. That possibly would 7 be my concern. 8 MISS WEEKES: Can I move to the gender agenda? What is it? 9 MS HOWLETT: Okay, the gender agenda is almost a five point 10 action plan which is looking at improving the position 11 of women within the police service. Just so that I do 12 not forget any of them, if I may refer -- 13 MISS WEEKES: Of course you can. 14 MS HOWLETT: The five main objectives -- so first of all, it 15 is about the service demonstrating consistently that it 16 values women officers and how we might get into that. 17 Secondly, it is achieving gender, ethnicity, sexual 18 orientation balance across business groups, across 19 roles, and also within ranks. 20 Thirdly, it is to have -- for women to have a voice 21 in influential policy fora, which I think is very 22 important. 23 Fourthly, it is to develop an understanding of the 24 competing demands on achieving this work/life balance 25 that I have already referred to. 101 1 And lastly, it is about having working environments 2 and equipment which is of the right quality and 3 standards to enable women to do their jobs 4 professionally. 5 So there are five broad areas, and there are action 6 plans under each of those five broad areas. Now the 7 gender agenda is a national agenda. The 8 Metropolitan Police contribution towards that is 9 something which is called EnGender, which is being led 10 by Denise Milani. I think you already have a written 11 submission from Denise; Denise heads up the Do It team, 12 the organisational improvement team within the Met, and 13 she has been driving very hard -- she is also a member 14 of ASWO as well. In fact, she is the only non-police 15 officer who is a member of ASWO, because of her role 16 within the organisation. 17 So she has been driving forward with support from 18 ASWO around the EnGender agenda, to support that gender 19 agenda. I hope that is not too confusing, all those 20 genders and agendas there. 21 MISS WEEKES: No, I followed it. As we have become 22 accustomed, policies and agendas can sound very grand, 23 but depending upon who is in charge of it and who drives 24 it and who supports it, and how well it is received, 25 there lies the end result. Are you confident that this 102 1 new gender agenda is going to change things for women? 2 MS HOWLETT: Had you asked me two or three years ago, 3 I would have said I was not at all confident. Ask me 4 now, I am a lot more confident, and I think the reason 5 for that is that I get a sense of a sea change, in terms 6 of what diversity means in the organisation, in the 7 sense that diversity is now a very broad canvas, and it 8 does not focus on one particular issue. 9 It is about ensuring that each individual is valued 10 for the contribution that he or she can make to the 11 organisation, and about ensuring that the organisation 12 enables individuals to reach their full potential, 13 regardless of their background, regardless of their 14 colour, regardless of their gender. 15 Now I get a sense, certainly amongst the policy 16 makers, that that focus is now very much wider and 17 embraces gender, sexual orientation, disability, to 18 a much greater extent than it did before. Certainly now 19 I have the privilege of working very closely to the 20 Commissioner, and the Deputy Commissioner, and I know 21 that it is very, very high on their particular agendas. 22 The Deputy Commissioner has in fact asked me to set 23 up a commission within the Metropolitan Police to look 24 at the current situation of women, to see what the 25 issues are for them, and to see how we might start 103 1 addressing them in a more sort of coherent way. He has 2 asked me to work with Assistant Commissioner Hogan-Howe 3 and Denise Milani to look at that specific issue. 4 Now I think that is an indication of the fact that 5 gender specifically is much higher on the agenda than it 6 ever was before. 7 The very fact I think now that we are getting women 8 through in much greater numbers, still nowhere near 9 enough, but in much greater numbers, to the very most 10 senior positions -- five chief constables in the country 11 who are women, more than we have ever had before. 12 A woman in charge of Special Branch; a woman in charge 13 of the Kidnap Squad. 14 It is that sort of role modeling which is so 15 important in terms of raising the profile. I also think 16 we have done a lot -- and I would like to pay tribute to 17 my colleagues in ASWO here, for raising the profile in 18 the media, they have been on radio, on television; they 19 have exposed their own personal circumstances in 20 interviews with the media. 21 Now all that, I think, is really important in terms 22 of raising this agenda. That is an awfully long-winded 23 answer to question, which is: I am more confident now 24 than I have been for a long time. 25 MISS WEEKES: We are encouraged to hear that confidence, but 104 1 can I pick you up on a word you have used, and I hope 2 you do not mind me doing so. You used the word 3 "privilege"; I am sure you will agree you are, through 4 your own efforts, and congratulations for them, in a 5 privileged position. 6 MS HOWLETT: Yes. 7 MISS WEEKES: What about the very young woman, in fact not 8 too dissimilar from the one that spoke to you in those 9 surprising terms; are you as confident that the lower 10 ranks are getting the message that you so clearly hear 11 from the man that you work with, who is driving forth 12 this agenda? 13 MS HOWLETT: I am confident that the messages are coming 14 loud and clear from, for example, the Commissioner -- 15 and the reason I say that is you may be aware that he 16 does a sort of rolling roadshow around the Met, which is 17 called "Mission, vision and values", and he very much 18 focuses on diversity issues, cultural change, leadership 19 and all those sorts of issues. Of course, he is 20 addressing audiences of a couple of hundred officers and 21 staff. 22 MISS WEEKES: We have heard from the Commissioner, and each 23 member of this panel is undoubtedly clear and convinced 24 about his commitment. But is a woman any different to 25 what we hear from the outgoing chairman of the Sikh 105 1 Association, just before you arrived, that his view is 2 at the top, they have got the commitment, it is when you 3 get down to the lower ranks, and management level; it is 4 not filtering down. 5 MS HOWLETT: Well, I think it is, but I think it is a very 6 gradual process, and I think we have a long way to go. 7 I think there has been a considerable improvement, and 8 I think the opportunities for women, for example, are 9 tremendous now, in terms of where they want to go. 10 But there are still a number of issues. There are 11 things like the long hours culture, for example, which 12 undoubtedly inhibits women specifically from applying 13 for specialist posts or for promotion, because they do 14 not feel they are able to commit to consistently long 15 hours, day after day. Long hours -- clearly in an 16 operational situation sometimes, one has to pull out all 17 the stops and work extremely hours, and that is totally 18 accepted, but on a daily basis, it is the quality of 19 work, rather than being seen there first thing in the 20 morning and last thing in the afternoon, that is 21 important. 22 It is about ensuring that women -- the women see the 23 processes to be fair, and may I give you an example of 24 what I am talking about? There was an issue that came 25 to my attention not very long ago, about six or eight 106 1 months ago, around postings following the promotion 2 process, and there were a couple of my colleagues at a 3 middle ranking level, female colleagues, who had been 4 successful and were jubilant about having got through 5 the promotion process. 6 They then waited and they then waited and they then 7 waited, and eventually, they came to me and said, "We do 8 not understand why we are not getting posted and being 9 promoted". 10 So I queried it with Assistant Commissioner 11 Hogan-Howe, he came, he asked me to find out exactly 12 what the issues were, he came to hear them for himself, 13 to the ASWO group, and he asked us to put forward 14 a number of proposals around how the postings process 15 might be and might seem to be more open, more 16 transparent and more fair. 17 We did that, and as a result of which, although that 18 process, I do not think, is perfect yet, has vastly 19 improved, and it is around making the process visible. 20 So a particular woman will understand why she is not 21 being promoted at a specific time. It might be because 22 that particular post, her skills are not suitable for 23 it, or it might be that she actually came lower down in 24 the pecking order, in terms of her position within the 25 promotion process. 107 1 So that was a really important issue for a lot of my 2 colleagues, and it was an example, I think, about 3 whether the organisation is willing to hear, willing to 4 listen and willing to be more open. But there are still 5 instances -- and I think it was referred to by the 6 colleague who was giving you evidence just before me, 7 about perception of an old boys' network operating. It 8 is that perception that we need to address by making 9 sure the processes and the systems are fair, open and 10 transparent; and that is one example of perhaps where we 11 have been able to effect some positive change. 12 MISS WEEKES: But is it not still an old boys' network, with 13 a macho attitude? 14 MS HOWLETT: I think it is less so, and I think it varies 15 a little bit across the organisation. One of the parts 16 of the organisation which is always seen to be very sort 17 of macho culture, very much a closed shop, has been 18 specialist operations. 19 Now what they have worked really hard over the 20 last couple of years to do is to open it up, by ways of 21 a careers advice booklet, a careers consultancy unit; 22 ensuring that if a member of staff is interested in 23 applying, it does not matter whether it is a woman or 24 a man, they get a single person who they can talk issues 25 through with, who will stay with them for the whole 108 1 process. They are much more open about advertising what 2 all the roles are, what competencies are needed for 3 those roles, and what sort of career path they would 4 expect to see in order to be successful. 5 So I do get a sense of the organisation opening up, 6 and wanting very much to encourage more female officers 7 specifically, with my ASWO hat on, into the 8 traditionally perhaps male preserves. But you know, do 9 not get me wrong, it is certainly not all roses. We 10 still have a long way to go. But there is 11 a recognition, I think, and a willingness to try and be 12 a little bit more flexible and imaginative. 13 MISS WEEKES: Black women are the most underrepresented 14 group in the officer ranks. They are overrepresented in 15 the staff ranks. Is that a good thing? 16 MS HOWLETT: Well, clearly it is not a good thing. Again, 17 it is going back to role models. If ethnic minority 18 women do not see colleagues at senior ranks, there is 19 going to be a very negative impression given in terms of 20 whether they are able to succeed or not, so again, this 21 role modeling is critically important. 22 But it is also about ensuring that the right people 23 are getting into the right roles, and this is again why, 24 and I know you have heard about this, the female and 25 ethnic minority detective training programme is so 109 1 important, because what that is doing is exposing ethnic 2 minority officers and women to a year long opportunity 3 to gain the experience they need to enable them to 4 compete on a level playing field, and I think this is 5 what it is all about. 6 Has the organisation established a level playing 7 field for people, male, female, black, white, Asian, to 8 compete, and I do not know yet whether we have, but 9 I think we are getting there. 10 MISS WEEKES: Because, of course, it is a recognised fact 11 that black women have the gender issue and the race 12 issue. 13 MS HOWLETT: And they compound each other. 14 MISS WEEKES: Are you aware of any particular initiative 15 that, for example, the Black Police Association have for 16 black women? 17 MS HOWLETT: No, I am not. The only initiative -- 18 MISS WEEKES: Do you have one? 19 MS HOWLETT: Not specifically for black women, no. For 20 women generally, but not for black women particularly, 21 and I have to say, it was an area within the Senior 22 Female Officers Conference that I spoke about that we 23 did not focus on nearly enough. 24 MISS WEEKES: Right. Well, speaking of focusing, do you 25 think that the race agenda has now swamped the gender 110 1 agenda? 2 MS HOWLETT: Again, I think -- and it is probably going back 3 to what I said earlier. If you had asked me that 4 a couple of years ago, I would have said yes, I think it 5 has, but I think there has been a gradual realisation 6 over the last two years that we need to embrace 7 diversity in the widest sense. So I do not think it is 8 now -- and I think there is a recognition that 9 disability, sexual orientation and gender are all key 10 issues for us too. 11 MISS WEEKES: I just have two other points, and it is the 12 relationship of the Association of Women Police 13 Officers, all the groups of them, their relationship 14 with the employment tribunal department; we have heard 15 from them today. 16 One of the interesting points that came up is that 17 there is no regular contact between women's groups and 18 the employment tribunals to discuss and raise the issues 19 which clearly come out of employment law tribunal cases. 20 Do you agree with that? 21 MS HOWLETT: Yes, I do agree with that, and I would welcome 22 that as a development. I see Esme in the audience, and 23 I have quite regular contact with Esme, but that tends 24 to be a more informal type arrangement than a more 25 structured way of feeding back the lessons to be 111 1 learned, and I think I would very much welcome that. 2 MISS WEEKES: Forgive me for pressing you a little: could it 3 really be that to date, there has been no regular 4 discussion with principal women's groups about why women 5 go to employment tribunals? Because a lot of them do. 6 MS HOWLETT: Yes, they do, and other than through gold 7 groups, for example, so, you know, if there was 8 a specific incident that may require some sort of 9 management overview, and we would set up a gold group, 10 then we would have -- I would invariably, for example, 11 invite Esme on to the group, but other than in those 12 particular circumstances, I think that is probably 13 a fair comment that you make. 14 MISS WEEKES: It is quite regrettable, is it not? 15 MS HOWLETT: I think it is something we need to look at as 16 a matter of urgency, I do agree with you, because 17 I think there is a lot to be learnt. 18 MISS WEEKES: Just one final point: what successful aspect 19 would you say women's groups have communicated to the 20 Metropolitan Police as a whole, which has made 21 a difference? 22 MS HOWLETT: The postings policy was a specific issue that 23 I think I mentioned. The training, I think, is another 24 area; we have engaged in specific gender training, and 25 we have tried to be fairly innovative, and we have used 112 1 mytho drama, and a variety of other avenues for training 2 women officers specifically in terms of increasing their 3 confidence, and those sorts of issues. 4 ASWO also present at and contribute towards the 5 training for first line supervisors, women first line 6 supervisors also. In fact it was only last week that 7 I went to one of the sessions, together in fact with my 8 staff officer, who is also here, and we presented -- so 9 we do that fairly regularly. 10 But I actually think the most important thing we can 11 do as an organisation of women is to be very visible, to 12 raise our profile, and to keep on fighting for women's 13 issues and supporting women coming through. 14 There is one area which we are just about to enter 15 into, and that is a mentoring regime for female 16 inspectors. We held a conference of female inspectors 17 some considerable time ago now. One of the issues 18 coming from them quite clearly was that they felt 19 isolated. They had all the pressures that their male 20 inspector colleagues had, but in addition to that, they 21 were often the only female middle manager on a borough. 22 So what we are doing as ASWO members is pairing up, 23 again it is a choice element here, but pairing up as 24 ASWO members as mentors with individual female 25 inspectors, and then the next step will be to encourage 113 1 them to develop support networks for female sergeants 2 and female constables. 3 I know at the moment a lot of boroughs, under the 4 EnGender agenda, are doing exactly that: are looking at 5 networking opportunities and focus groups within their 6 local boroughs to better support their female officers 7 and staff. 8 MISS WEEKES: Thank you very much indeed. 9 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you, Ms Howlett. I will just 10 invite Sir Anthony Burden to put some questions. 11 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN 12 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Just a few points, if I may. I see in 13 your submission, Carol, that there is an intention to 14 form a similar association for police staff. Can I just 15 put up a MET-TUS reference, please? This is what the 16 Met unions say about the macho culture that you were 17 referring to earlier. 7.5; they could have been 18 listening in to exactly what you said. So as well 19 having a shared gender agenda, it would appear you have 20 got exactly the same working agenda; could I ask, why 21 not one organisation that in numbers terms would be much 22 more powerful in making your -- 23 MS HOWLETT: We have talked on many occasions about this. 24 There were two issues, first of all, it is the sheer 25 logistics of holding meetings which are going to be huge 114 1 meetings. We already have 68 members of ASWO, and if 2 you more than doubled that, it would be quite difficult 3 to manage. 4 And secondly, there was a feeling amongst many of my 5 female colleagues that although there was a huge 6 overlap, there were also specific issues for female 7 officers, as opposed to female staff; for example, 8 protective equipment for female officers, which would 9 not be applicable to female staff. 10 On balance, we therefore felt what would be more 11 effective would be to have a sister organisation on the 12 police staff side, with one of our members being 13 a member of their organisation and vice versa, and 14 working in parallel, identifying where there were joint 15 issues, and in those cases, working together on them, 16 but also working on our distinct and unique issues too. 17 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So if there is a joint cause, you will 18 go together collectively? 19 MS HOWLETT: Absolutely, yes. 20 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Could I just look at that for a moment? 21 I know you have referred to it, but it does prompt 22 a comment from me that the macho culture, of course, is 23 possibly something more than can be tackled just by 24 asking people to be more flexible; it is actually 25 positively blocking, and blocking because of this old 115 1 boys' -- well, it is a boys' club, and it can be a very 2 mischievous boys' club, on occasions; not necessarily in 3 the MPS, but it can be. 4 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Do not point in this direction! 5 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: If push comes to shove and there is no 6 progress, and women still keep hitting this ceiling, are 7 the MPS up for getting tough over this? 8 MS HOWLETT: I think undoubtedly. I do not think you can 9 get anybody tougher on things like this than the 10 Commissioner, and the Commissioner is such a strong 11 leader that when he is tough on things, other people get 12 tough on things too. 13 I think the organisation is at a point that they are 14 determined, not only around gender but around sexual 15 orientation, around harassment, and around 16 discrimination generally, that it is just not acceptable 17 and it will not be acceptable. And I think you will see 18 a very hard action if things do not change. 19 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: And this issue we are getting about 20 managers, middle managers, managers not managing 21 difficulties, not managing issues, and this is a big 22 issue; another point that has been made, even when they 23 fail, they do not seem to get taken to task over it. 24 That is something I hope that possibly will be a message 25 delivered in a fairly strong way. 116 1 MS HOWLETT: Absolutely. 2 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Just finally on this, I must say, when 3 I read your submission and all the statistics we have 4 been given, I was rather staggered by the lack of female 5 representation in the Metropolitan Police, and we had to 6 do a lot of delving, can I say, before we could find 7 representative organisations -- yours came readily to 8 note, but we really did expect others to be there. 9 It just leaves this niggling question, please, if 10 you could comment on: if you are a young female member 11 of staff, an 18 year old admin assistant, that is 12 getting sexually harassed in the workplace, who is very 13 unfamiliar and very uncertain about the formal measures 14 to deal with this, where does she go? 15 MS HOWLETT: I think this is why it is so important to have 16 women officers and women police staff at middle 17 management level in numbers. It is going back to my 18 comments about the female inspector feeling isolated, 19 because there are not any other female inspectors, and 20 often, there are none at senior management team. If 21 there were, I think she would feel more confident and 22 more able to go to that individual. 23 I also think there is a big role for the Federation 24 there as well, and the Federation's support for 25 an individual -- or TUS support for an individual such 117 1 as you are talking about. 2 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So an action plan that involves you 3 all? 4 MS HOWLETT: It has to be. 5 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: It has to be one drive forward. Thank 6 you very much. 7 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Ms Howlett, can I first of all thank 8 you for the candour with which you have responded to our 9 questions? We appreciate your contribution very much 10 indeed. But before I conclude, can I just remind you 11 that at the stage of my introductory comments, I said 12 that if you wished to make a short closing statement, 13 then you would be provided with the opportunity to do 14 so. If you do so wish, this is your moment. 15 MS HOWLETT: Okay, thank you. I do not think I do, because 16 I think you have given me such a wide opportunity to 17 disclose to you everything I wanted to, both in terms of 18 the challenges and in terms of the things that I think 19 are going well, in terms of improving the situation for 20 women. I really do thank you for that opportunity. 21 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you. Just for the record, can 22 I just say that as with all our witnesses, it may be 23 that once we have heard from others, we will want to ask 24 you a few more questions, either in writing or ask you 25 to come back at one of these hearings. 118 1 If we do find the need to request additional 2 information in whatever form, then obviously, we will 3 want to do it in a way which causes the least 4 inconvenience to yourself and indeed to the organisation 5 that you represent, but for the moment, on behalf of my 6 colleagues, all that is left for me to say is to thank 7 you very much for your contribution this afternoon and 8 thanks for your contribution to the Inquiry in general. 9 MS HOWLETT: Thank you very much, sir. 10 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: The Inquiry is adjourned for today, we 11 resume at 10.30 tomorrow morning. 12 (5.10 pm) 13 (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am the following day) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25