(2.00 pm) 22 MR STEVE ALLEN (called) 23 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Good afternoon to you, Mr Allen. 24 Welcome to the Inquiry. Can I start by saying thank you 25 very much indeed for accepting our invitation to attend 62 1 the Inquiry this afternoon and to give us evidence. Of 2 course, we thank you for letting us have your written 3 submission, which we have found extremely helpful. 4 I do appreciate that for some of our witnesses, 5 perhaps not your good self, but some of our witnesses 6 sometimes may find the process and the nature of our 7 proceedings a little bit daunting, so I thought it would 8 be helpful if I very briefly set out how we intend to 9 proceed with the hearing this afternoon. 10 First let me introduce myself and the other members 11 of the panel. I am Sir Bill Morris, recently retired 12 general secretary of the Transport and General Workers 13 Union, a post I held for some 12 years. As you can see, 14 there are two other members of the panel. First, on my 15 right is Sir Anthony Burden who recently retired as 16 Chief Constable of the South Wales Constabulary after 17 a very long and distinguished career in the Police 18 Service. On my left is Anesta Weekes QC, who is 19 an eminent barrister and sits as a recorder and 20 a part-time chair person of the employment tribunals. 21 She was also counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry. 22 Mr Allen, as you know, we have been tasked by the 23 Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent 24 Inquiry into professional standards and employment 25 matters in the Metropolitan Police Service. Let me 63 1 emphasise that our focus is the MPS as an organisation 2 and not the individuals who make up the organisation. 3 The inquiry we are conducting is inquisitorial and not 4 adversarial in nature or character. 5 We are very keen to enquire into the issues raised 6 by our terms of reference so that we can make 7 appropriate recommendations for further good practice 8 rather than concentrating on making criticism of the MPS 9 as an organisation or particular individuals within the 10 MPS. 11 To help us, we are very keen to hear from all our 12 witnesses not just what is wrong with the Metropolitan 13 Police Service but what is right with it, but most 14 importantly, your suggestions in putting it right if you 15 think there is anything wrong. 16 Let me say to you that a transcript is being taken 17 so that we can have a proper record of the evidence 18 given by all our witnesses. This will be posted on our 19 website later today. 20 At the end of these introductory remarks I will lead 21 on the questions to you, followed by my colleagues. 22 First Miss Weekes will ask you questions, to be followed 23 by Sir Anthony Burden, and then any supplementary 24 questions that I might find necessary. At the 25 conclusion of our questions I will offer you the 64 1 opportunity for a brief closing comment. 2 In your written submission, which will be posted on 3 the Inquiry's website following today's evidence, you 4 have set out the following information. First, what the 5 Diversity Directorate does and its current 6 responsibilities. Next is operational changes such as 7 critical incident management. And you have talked about 8 the communication of diversity message within the MPS. 9 You have talked about the diversity and organisation of 10 improvement team and the development of the various 11 initiatives; the governance and policy development; 12 working with human relations and, of course, employment 13 tribunals. 14 We would like to ask you some questions about the 15 material in your submission and seek your views on a 16 range of matters that are of interest to us. But first, 17 and before we raise these issues, we believe that it 18 would be helpful for the benefit of the transcript if 19 you would introduce yourself formally to the Inquiry. 20 A. Yes. Members of the panel, I am Commander Steve Allen. 21 I have the privilege of heading the Metropolitan Police 22 Diversity Directorate and I joined the 23 Metropolitan Police a week next Monday. Sorry, a year 24 next Monday. It feels like a week. 25 65 1 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS 2 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: How time flies. 3 You have the responsibility of leading the Diversity 4 Directorate in the Metropolitan Police Service. But, of 5 course, diversity is a very wide theme. It can mean 6 different things to different people. It would be 7 helpful if we could invite you to define your 8 understanding of the term diversity. 9 A. Well, I think there are several layers to it, sir. 10 I think for me, though, it starts with individual 11 people, and, in a sense, it lets us into a bit of 12 history about where the Police Service has come with 13 diversity and a kind of early understanding about 14 putting people into categories and believing that if we 15 taught people how to treat people who fitted into 16 certain categories then everything would be all right, 17 and an emerging understanding over the years that life 18 is a lot more complex than that. 19 For me, fundamentally, I suppose, diversity is about 20 where is truth, where is reality. The lessons of my 21 life are that I, and I am sure many others, grow up 22 believing that we are the holders of wisdom and truth, 23 and that those around us are closer and further away 24 from the truth depending on the extent to which they 25 agree with us. What I have learnt over the years is 66 1 that, of course, truth is somewhere in the middle of all 2 of us, and that I only have a partial grasp on it, and 3 that if I am going to find where that lies then I need 4 to rely entirely on other people to help me along that 5 path. 6 So diversity for me is about enriching our 7 understanding of the world. In a policing context it is 8 about delivering operational policing in a way that 9 delivers safe and confident communities, communities who 10 believe they are -- and are -- part of the processes by 11 which that community becomes safer and more confident, 12 and, I suppose, the word at the base of it all for me is 13 respect. 14 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I note, and you have indicated, the 15 time you have spent so far with the Metropolitan Police 16 Service. You had some career time in Avon and Somerset; 17 yes? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Have they got a diversity policy in 20 Avon and Somerset, that service? 21 A. Yes, they have a diversity strategy, a small unit at the 22 centre. But of course that unit is a tenth of the size 23 of the Met so everything is scaled down accordingly, 24 apart from the commitment. 25 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Yes, of course. Can you share with us 67 1 the sort of experience qualitatively, because you have 2 identified the quantitative difference between Avon and 3 Somerset and the Metropolitan Police. Could you share 4 with us the experience of implementation, how that 5 impacts, that particular Police Service, to the Met. 6 Because geographically, in terms of the terrain, they 7 are different, there are some differences. 8 A. There are some differences geographically. I think you 9 cannot step away from the differences in size as being 10 fundamental to the whole question of implementation and 11 outcome. In Avon and Somerset, it strikes me now, 12 having spent a year here, that change was not easy to 13 deliver. It was easier, because lines of communication 14 were very much shorter, much more of the business of the 15 constabulary was done between people who knew each other 16 and had professional relationships. 17 So, for example, I would guess that anyone of chief 18 inspector rank or above I would have known right across 19 the constabulary. Clearly, in the Metropolitan Police, 20 that is far from being the case. I think that had an 21 important impact on the ability to deliver change 22 because, in a sense, you were dealing through people and 23 not through bureaucratic processes. I think that the 24 very scale of the Metropolitan Police puts pressure on 25 for delivery mechanisms to become very bureaucratic. 68 1 In terms of the comparison in what has been 2 achieved, one of the reasons I wanted to come to the 3 Metropolitan Police was about complexity and the size of 4 the challenge, and also I think many of us who served in 5 forces outside the Met watched the Metropolitan Police, 6 if you like, from the sidelines through the pages of the 7 Police Review and through the television, and it just 8 struck me that the enormity of the challenges here 9 probably for me personally would move me on in my 10 career, and personally, in a way that probably going 11 nowhere else did. 12 Having arrived here, I look at the difficulties of 13 delivering change to the organisation and I look at some 14 of the aspects of the culture and I actually marvel at 15 what the Met has achieved over a period of four or five 16 years. Of course, my judgment about that is not based 17 on having been here four or five years ago, but in the 18 post that I am currently performing, my reinvestigation 19 teams bring me into contact with the way in which the 20 Metropolitan Police operated five years ago, 20 years 21 ago, so, for example, the New Cross fire investigation, 22 the investigation into the death of Michael Menson. So 23 I have the opportunity to go through significant numbers 24 of papers and get a real feel for the way in which the 25 Met operated then. 69 1 I have to say that some of the things that the Met 2 has achieved are certainly new to me in terms of the 3 professionalism and the structures and processes, 4 particularly around critical incidents, I think. And 5 I would say that they are in advance of some of the 6 developments in Avon and Somerset. 7 I think the particular subject matter of this 8 Inquiry, sir, around relationships inside the 9 organisation, I would say that things were probably more 10 advanced in Avon and Somerset, and it has been one of 11 the fascinating parts of the experience of moving, to 12 begin to understand some of the internal dynamics of the 13 Metropolitan Police. 14 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I want to explore the difference 15 a little bit further with you, because whilst there are 16 a number of common sorts of situations, crime is crime 17 wherever it is committed, London or Bristol or Bath or 18 wherever, of course that is a fact. So there are many 19 commonalities, but there are some differences as well, 20 the profile. When I go to the West Country I drive 21 through swathes of rural England, a different profile in 22 terms of the make-up, particularly when you move out of 23 the urban centres. 24 What I am seeking to explore is a different profile 25 altogether: whether in pursuing and implementing 70 1 a diversity policy there were any adjustments for the 2 new environment of the Met as compared with the 3 environment of Avon and Somerset? 4 A. I am not sure that I can say there were, perhaps for two 5 reasons. One is that my delivery of diversity in Avon 6 and Somerset was from the role of a divisional commander 7 or a head of operations on the Central Bristol division, 8 and I guess in the role that I have now it is the first 9 time -- I have kind of entered the world of diversity 10 professionals, and so there are, of course, differences 11 because of that difference in role. 12 I think you pointed to a couple of things, sir, that 13 are clearly impactive, the first being the profile of 14 the Metropolitan Police, and I very much doubt that if 15 I had got a job in Sussex that I would have had the 16 opportunity to sit in front of a panel such as this and 17 have the opportunity to talk about some of the things 18 that are important to me. So I think the profile -- 19 I think the history of the Met, and where it has brought 20 us in terms of relationships inside the organisation, is 21 probably the single biggest adjustment that I have 22 personally had to make, because, as I say, I think 23 relationships inside the Met are different for a number 24 of reasons to those that I have experienced over the 25 years, and I think it has taken me and is taking me 71 1 a time to understand the impact of the culture and the 2 history of the Met on some of those relationship things. 3 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Even external to the Met, the community 4 you police is different -- the profile of the community. 5 A. The profile of the community is very different. For me 6 it depends where you start. So the profile of 7 communities in London make it impossible to understand 8 diversity as being about putting people in boxes and 9 dealing with, you know, black people or Muslims or the 10 elderly community. My kind of perceptual framework 11 around diversity and around policing is that it begins 12 with individual relationships and individual encounters, 13 and, in a sense, whilst the complexity of London's 14 communities means that it kind of becomes bigger and 15 bigger and bigger, and perhaps the sophistication that 16 we need from our staff is greater, I think that 17 principle means that whether you are policing in Bristol 18 or Midsomer Norton or London, if you see that the focus 19 is about delivering positive outcomes from individual 20 interactions then the thinking principles are pretty 21 much the same. 22 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: The paradigm in the Met, in terms of 23 communicating its cultural values, is that its integrity 24 is not negotiable. And we are all signed up to that, I 25 think. 72 1 Is diversity negotiable? 2 A. The easy answer is no, for a whole range of reasons. We 3 will not, as an organisation, deliver the things that 4 society expects from us, so we will not deliver reduced 5 street crime; we will not deliver effective roads 6 policing; we will not deliver counterterrorism; and we 7 will not tackle antisocial behaviour effectively unless 8 we manage diversity effectively. So unless the people 9 who we work for have trust and confidence in us as an 10 organisation to treat them with respect, to take 11 seriously the information that we ask them to give us, 12 to act professionally on it, to look after them when we 13 are in trouble, to speak honestly and to deal with them 14 in a way that demonstrates the integrity is 15 non-negotiable; unless we achieve those things in our 16 relationships with our communities we will not deliver 17 sustainable operational success. And we will not have 18 a organisation that is capable of delivering those 19 relationships externally unless the organisation 20 internally adheres to the same values and the same 21 understanding, that the Metropolitan Police can only be 22 effective if it is made up of people with the widest 23 range of perspectives with the widest range of 24 experience, because we deal with such a complex society, 25 such a complex and enormous range of incidents and 73 1 situations, that unless we have people in the 2 organisation who have the experience, knowledge, 3 expertise to help us develop the police response to 4 those things, then we cannot be successful. 5 In the short-term is drives us into crisis 6 management. So, for me, I do not see how diversity can 7 even begin to be negotiable because it has to be the 8 philosophical basis on which policing is organised and 9 operates. 10 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I am clear about the philosophical 11 basis that you have outlined, and you have talked about 12 the outcome, so it is leading somewhere, but what is the 13 overriding factor here, the policy or the outcome? 14 A. Sorry, when you say the overriding factor? 15 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: What is important here, is it the 16 policy of diversity or the outcome of the policy of 17 diversity? 18 A. It has to be the outcome. I think it is again -- I am 19 sure we will come to it later, sir -- it is for me one 20 of the stages of development in the police that we have 21 had a significant focus on, developing policy and 22 strategy and action plans and initiatives, and yet still 23 too many people on the receiving end of policing have 24 negative encounters; still too many of our staff inside 25 the organisation have negative experiences. Therefore, 74 1 my conclusion is that there has to be something beyond 2 policy and strategy and structure if we are really going 3 to get to the heart of delivering an improved service. 4 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: I do not take any issue about your 5 answer in terms of the outcome, but can you share with 6 us, please, how do you measure the outcome in the Met of 7 your diversity strategy and policy? 8 A. Currently there are a couple of key mechanisms. The 9 first, I suppose, is performance measures around hate 10 crime, where currently our detection rate runs at about 11 22 per cent. So there are those kind of operation 12 performance measures. There are measures of public 13 satisfaction from surveying; measures to do with levels 14 of complaints and grievance, things like that; and there 15 are also measures that in truth I am not sure take us 16 very far, which are about the extent to which parts of 17 the organisation have -- it sounds rather cynical, but 18 have filled in action plans around diversity, so the 19 extent to which they can say, "You gave us a diversity 20 strategy template and we have now completed it." 21 So a measure would be how many, for example, of our 22 boroughs have completed their diversity strategy 23 template. 24 One of the things that is work in progress in the 25 directorate at the moment is to try and develop 75 1 a performance regime around diversity that focuses, or 2 tries to tease out how we can measure outcomes in terms 3 of community confidence, in terms of staff confidence, 4 and to try to bring together all the information that 5 exists inside the organisation into one place so that we 6 can begin to identify good and bad diversity 7 performance. That does present quite a number of 8 challenges, just because, as I say, of the kind of 9 difficulties of getting into those qualitative 10 indicators. But that work is on-going. 11 As a directorate, the direction that we believe we 12 need to be going in is being able to identify those 13 parts of the organisation where we can take our 14 resources and our knowledge and our expertise into those 15 boroughs and OCUs to work alongside staff and managers 16 there to develop processes of culture and those kind of 17 things, and because we cannot do everywhere at one time 18 we need to kind of prioritise that. And so the prime 19 reason for developing those indicators is to give us (a) 20 understanding of where the key pivot points are in terms 21 of our interventions, and also to give us a clearer 22 understanding about what those interventions might need 23 to be. So the meaningful indicators, I think, are still 24 a work in progress. 25 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: My colleagues and myself have been 76 1 exploring, looking at, intrigued by the whole concept of 2 a structure here, which obviously has a diversity 3 dimension. Let me just paint for you the picture that 4 we have been looking at and you can tell me if I have 5 got it wrong. 6 We see the Directorate for Professional Standards 7 where it is, and within that there are employment 8 tribunals. We then see the HR sort of directorate, if 9 that is what it is, and it encompasses your new policy 10 of fairness at work, and part of our terms of reference 11 is about the workplace. 12 And then we see diversity standing in its glory, or 13 isolation -- I will leave you to choose. What we have 14 not seen is the golden thread running through, because 15 some of us would like a little bit more enlightenment as 16 to how you can operate a fairness at work policy when 17 the diversity is not an integral part of that policy. 18 We need a lot of explanation. 19 So let me ask you, is it a client relationship that 20 you operate internally from your directorate to the 21 other directorates and units within the Met on the 22 people issues? How does it happen? 23 A. An interesting set of questions. Okay. The 24 directorate, in terms of HR processes, and particularly 25 around fairness at work, recruitment, retention and 77 1 progression -- you will have seen from my written 2 evidence, sir, that within the Diversity Directorate is 3 a team headed by Denise Milani called "DOIT". That team 4 originally, I believe, was part of HR under the auspices 5 of the positive action team, and subsequently moved out 6 into the Diversity Directorate. 7 In terms of how the relationship works, the "DOIT" 8 team and their colleagues in HR actually do work very 9 close together, and I know, although I could not give 10 you the detail, that Denise was very involved in the 11 development of fairness at work, is part and parcel of 12 most of the relevant meetings in HR, and also attends -- 13 in the same way that HR come to the MPA's equal 14 opportunities and diversity board, because they clearly 15 have a input there, we also go to the MPA human 16 resources committee to kind of make that link. 17 My personal view is that the links could be closer, 18 and I have already alluded to my view that the 19 directorate needs to become much more outward facing 20 rather than a part of the organisation that delivers 21 products, if you like, but we need to be integrated into 22 the activity of the other main business areas. We have 23 achieved it to some extent in the policing bits of the 24 directorate with things like community safety units, 25 family liaison and reinvestigation teams, but I am not 78 1 convinced that we have achieved it as well as we might 2 around some of the HR things, around professional 3 standards. 4 What I would say is that we do have within the 5 critical incidents structure, and when we are looking at 6 internal critical incidents the directorate is 7 invariably represented on gold groups, so command groups 8 that manage those incidents. The directorate is, as 9 I say, invariably part of those groups, so the 10 perspective is put in there. 11 But it is an interesting discussion around the need 12 to have a diversity directorate in an organisation where 13 diversity is the organising philosophy. I see very 14 much -- I know the Commissioner shares the view -- that 15 the Diversity Directorate has to have as his strategic 16 ambition not to exist. So there is active consideration 17 at the moment, as we pull together a change of emphasis 18 and a restructuring, there is active consideration at 19 the moment about how and when we move functions that 20 currently sit in the directorate into the kind of 21 mainstream business areas of the organisation. 22 But, you know, in terms of the relationships that 23 exist, our activity is, although it could be more so, 24 our activity is very much linked into most other parts 25 of the organisation. 79 1 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Do you offer the services of your 2 directorate on important decision-making issues, or do 3 they come to you or do you go to them? Because, as 4 I have said, we are looking for the joined up -- 5 A. It will be a bit of both. I mean, in terms of the 6 policy process, new policy comes through the directorate 7 so that we can -- you know, it is probably now overtaken 8 by the policy clearing house process, but the 9 directorate will still have an input, a very close 10 input, into the impact assessment around policy. 11 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Forgive me, do they send the documents 12 to you to be diversity approved, or what? 13 A. There is a range of different approaches. One of the 14 structures, which might be a helpful way of illustrating 15 it -- I have referred in my written evidence to the 16 governance issues around the diversity board and the 17 diversity forum. At a tier below the diversity forum 18 there are what are called diversity work groups. We are 19 just again realigning those from about eight or nine 20 into four. Those work groups have a kind of portfolio 21 for hate crime, for personnel, for operational delivery, 22 and there is one at the moment specifically around 23 disability. Those work groups are responsible for 24 developing initiatives within their portfolios, and 25 those work groups consist of people from a whole range 80 1 of places across the organisation. So, for example, in 2 operational delivery, territorial policing are very 3 involved because much of that is around stop search. In 4 personnel you would obviously expect, and there is, 5 a significant input from HR, from the ET unit, again 6 from across the organisation. 7 Those work groups have work programmes. They are 8 performance managed -- or they will be from the middle 9 of March performance managed by me, so the chairs of 10 those work groups will have a regular monthly meeting 11 with me to talk about progress against the work 12 programmes. The products from those groups, be they 13 policy, they could be initiatives, they could be 14 policing operations around domestic violence and things 15 like that, so a range of different products will come 16 from the work groups into the diversity forum for 17 discussion and consultation and amending, maybe 18 referring back to the work groups, and from there, 19 depending on the nature of the particular issue, they 20 will either then go on into implementation or they will 21 then go up to the Deputy Commissioner's diversity 22 strategy board where again they will be discussed, 23 consulted, sent back for revision or progressed, then 24 into the policy making structures of the organisation or 25 wherever appropriate. 81 1 So that is one of the formal mechanisms in which the 2 various parts of the organisation work together to 3 develop policy and initiatives. And, in a sense, that 4 is the rest of the organisation coming into our 5 structures. 6 But then at the same time there are examples where 7 we get into other people's structures, so developing 8 around training, for example in the Met, where a formal 9 structure is pretty much now in place where key parts of 10 the organisation have training management boards that 11 feed into the strategic training management board. So 12 managing training demand across the organisation. 13 Rather than have a training board for diversity 14 training, people from the directorate go and sit as part 15 of those training management boards to ensure that the 16 work of that board properly takes account of the 17 diversity dimension. So that would be an example of us 18 going into the organisation. 19 Another very practical operational one would be for 20 example the community safety team where I have got about 21 seven officers in the directorate who have 22 responsibility for developing and implementing policy 23 and practice around hate crime and domestic violence. 24 Each of the 32 boroughs has a community safety unit 25 which is made up -- which should be made up of 82 1 detectives who have the operational responsibility for 2 those areas of activity. 3 Those units on the boroughs are owned by territorial 4 policing; they are not owned by the Diversity 5 Directorate. So the role of my team, as I say, is about 6 developing approaches, developing policy, and then 7 taking those out onto the boroughs and working with 8 community safety units on boroughs. For example, we are 9 implementing a new approach to domestic violence at the 10 moment so my team are out with the pilot boroughs making 11 sure that practice and policy and training and all the 12 rest of it is put in place. 13 So that would be an example of us going out into the 14 organisation, if you like, and there are formal examples 15 of policy where the organisation comes into us. So it 16 is a two-way process. 17 In my role as a commander, as the head of the 18 Diversity Directorate, I see one of my responsibilities 19 as about being proactive and looking for opportunities 20 in the organisation where I as an individual, or we as 21 a directorate, can actually go and have some impact. 22 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: What I am trying to explore is whether 23 there are any programmes within the Met for, rather than 24 people having to send their material up to the board or 25 to your directorate or whatever to be diversity vetted 83 1 or proofed or whatever, where is the programme on the 2 confidence building for them to do it themselves? 3 A. Sir, if I have given you the impression that that does 4 not happen elsewhere in the organisation then I have 5 given you a misleading impression because it does 6 increasingly. This is the heart in the debate about 7 change in culture, is it not, that ultimately that 8 should be done as a perfectly natural part of the 9 processes, and I would say that there are some parts of 10 the Metropolitan Police where that happens and other 11 parts where it probably does not. Some parts of the 12 organisation, for example specialist operations, have 13 a diversity officer who takes ownership and drives 14 diversity development within specialist operations. He 15 is part of their staff; he is not part of my staff. 16 I welcome that, encourage that, and would love every 17 building in the Metropolitan Police to follow that 18 model. 19 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Is it mandatory in the policy makers or 20 is it voluntary? 21 A. Well, it is now mandatory, of course, throughout the 22 policy clearing house process. Again, in terms of 23 answering the previous question, there are now -- 24 I think it is now 300 key policy developers in the 25 organisation who have been trained in doing impact 84 1 assessment around the development of new policy, because 2 within the work book process that we are still 3 developing and still learning about, the consultation 4 and the impact assessment and the rest of it is all part 5 and parcel of the process of putting a policy up through 6 the system. 7 So we have provided training to around 300 people to 8 enable them to do that. And we are now looking, with 9 the MPA and with others from outside the organisation, 10 at the quality of those impact assessments to see 11 whether or not the training has actually delivered what 12 we wanted it to deliver. I suspect that at the moment 13 we are going to have to go back to it as we learn. 14 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Just finally, what is the sanction for 15 those within the organisation who do not buy into the 16 policy; they have had their training, they have had 17 everything, they have had counselling, they have had the 18 benefit of your directorate, but at the end of the day 19 they are still not fully subscribing or not subscribing 20 to the diversity policy. What has happened to them? 21 A. They are still there, sir. 22 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Sorry? 23 A. They are still there. It is not a way of avoiding your 24 question, but the answer is they are -- I suppose, if 25 there are sanctions -- 85 1 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: But if they were accountants you would 2 not leave them there, would you? If their discipline 3 was accounting, they are accountants, or the doctor or 4 the nurse, you would not leave them there. So why do 5 you leave them there if they are not performing? 6 A. This is an absolutely fundamental discussion. In terms 7 of approach -- I mean, I think the issue of sanction is 8 actually quite difficult because where someone is 9 overtly racist, where the evidence exists to put them 10 through the discipline process and discipline them -- 11 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: It is not just about race. It is not 12 a race issue. 13 A. No, I understand. It was an illustrative example, sir. 14 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: It is what you are doing for 15 disability, or gender or whatever. 16 A. Absolutely. I suppose what I am saying is that there 17 are sanctions within the disciplinary process for 18 obvious, for overt failure to live their professional 19 lives by the principles of diversity, if you like. But 20 what you are, I guess, alluding to are those people who 21 do not believe it, do not want to know, and carry on 22 their professional activity in a way that never crosses 23 that line. 24 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: No, what I am alluding to is that I am 25 a manager in the Met. I have a discipline -- it may be 86 1 a finance discipline or it may be within the context of 2 a research discipline, whatever. I am a manager. 3 I know the policy. If I fail, as a cost analysis it 4 costs the Met some money because I am responsible for 5 the contract, I expect whoever manages me within the 6 structure to take some measures against me, either 7 counseling or whatever. Or ultimately it might come to 8 more severe sanctions. 9 What I do not understand is if diversity is 10 non-negotiable, and if there are managers -- I know they 11 are police officers but they have got managerial 12 responsibility, and we have had some interesting 13 discussion here in the last 24 hours about that -- but 14 if they are managers, either managing resource or 15 people, whatever, if they fail in other disciplines, 16 there are routine help, support, sanctions ultimately. 17 What I am getting at is that you can fail in the 18 discipline from the diversity perspective but not too 19 much happens to you? 20 A. I think what I am having slight difficulty with with the 21 question, sir, is actually being able to see very 22 clearly what you mean by if you fail in the diversity 23 discipline. 24 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Let me give you an example. I am in 25 the personnel department. It is my job to draft the 87 1 adverts that goes out, and it is also my job to ensure 2 that all the publications which are broadly 3 representative -- that is a policy decision of somebody 4 in the Met, that the advert goes to all so that we can 5 recruit from a wider perspective because that is what we 6 seek to build -- but I say, "Well, I am not at all happy 7 about this group, that group, whatever the group is so 8 I have not sent the advert to that particular point. A 9 very basic example because diversity starts from when 10 you recruit to when people leave. 11 My manager counselled me. I have done it again, it 12 is a written warning, and I am very clever so I did not 13 send it out. I find imaginative ways of not doing it 14 and it becomes very obvious. 15 What I have not understood is what happens to me 16 when it is blatantly obvious that I am not practising 17 the policy. I might be talking the policy but I am not 18 practising the policy. 19 What I am saying to you is that my understanding was 20 coming across, if I fail as a manager in the finance 21 department or in research, something happens 22 disciplinary-wise or corrective measures, either 23 counselling or training or help or whatever, but 24 ultimately if I continue to fail there is a sanction. 25 What I am trying to establish is why are the same 88 1 routine steps not taken insofar as implementing the 2 diversity policy right at the end of application? 3 A. Thank you for that clarity, sir. I think where the 4 failure is a failure to carry out a specific task or 5 a specific responsibility, then the position is quite 6 clear, because then all the disciplinary processes that 7 you have outlined, individual performance management 8 processes, unsatisfactory performance procedures. All 9 those things apply equally where a specific task or duty 10 is failed to be done. 11 The territory I thought that you were asking me to 12 comment on is the territory that I think is very, very 13 much more difficult, which is about how we address not 14 a failure to carry out a duty that is imposed or a task 15 that is required, but it is how do we address the 16 officer who does not speak to a member of the public in 17 a way that is respectful and professional, that is 18 hidden from supervision, that is not complained about 19 because the member of the public has no confidence that 20 the service will do anything about it? 21 For me, that is one side of the coin -- I delve into 22 a rather difficult metaphor here -- that is one bit of 23 the diversity agenda that presents the greatest 24 challenges. That is where, I think, our thinking needs 25 to be about positive intervention rather than addressing 89 1 that kind of behaviour through sanction. 2 I very, very firmly hold the view that the Met, 3 probably the Police Service, and probably most other 4 organisations, have tended to present the diversity 5 agenda as being about risk. We have said to our 6 staff -- and this is a huge generalisation, I accept 7 that -- but we have said to our staff over the 8 years, "You must get this right because if you do not 9 you will be in trouble." And so the perception 10 framework around the diversity agenda becomes about risk 11 and about personal vulnerability. 12 My belief is that we need to turn that round so that 13 the diversity agenda becomes about opportunity: 14 opportunity to be more professional; opportunity to lock 15 up more robbers; opportunity to make people feel safer; 16 opportunity to work in a better organisation where I 17 feel more valued, and I am given the chance to make the 18 contribution I know I can make. 19 And so I think the way through that is not to 20 develop an increasingly complex regime of sanction and 21 kind of oversight of people's behaviour, but it is about 22 saying, "Okay, let us rework the way that we sell this; 23 let us rework the way that we convince our people that 24 this is good stuff", rather than saying, "Here is your 25 diversity strategy, here is your street crime strategy, 90 1 here is your health and safety strategy, and actually 2 the one that is important this week is your street crime 3 strategy because that is the one you are going to be 4 asked about." 5 It is that whole thing which for me starts with the 6 moment of encounter at 2 o'clock in the morning, as 7 I always say, on Shepherd's Bush Green. That for me is 8 where the debate about diversity begins, and I think 9 that is where we have to get into changing behaviour and 10 changing understanding about what we want from those 11 encounters, and I do not think you achieve that by 12 ratcheting up the level of sanction in relation to that 13 kind of thing. 14 I think it is a fairly sophisticated mix because it 15 is about being utterly and completely intolerant of 16 sexist, racist, bullying, homophobic behaviour, and 17 understanding that there is no place in the organisation 18 for that, and making very clear statements in terms of 19 the way that you treat people, so that when you say that 20 and people behave in that way they do not walk away, if 21 you like, with words of advice and management action. 22 But at the same time, it is creating that space in the 23 organisation for people to move from an understanding of 24 diversity which is about fear and threat and moving into 25 a place that is about opportunity, professionalism and 91 1 about living in a better world and working in a better 2 organisation. 3 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you very much indeed, Mr Allen. 4 Miss Weekes will be asking you some questions in 5 a minute or so, but for the benefit of our stenographer 6 we usually have a short break of about five minutes. 7 Thank you very much. 8 (2.55 pm) 9 (A short break) 10 (3.00 pm) 11 Questions by MISS WEEKES 12 MISS WEEKES: Good afternoon, Commander Allen. Could I turn 13 to a few more detailed questions on some of the policies 14 and the agendas which are now in place, those policies 15 and agendas which I think you arrived at and met within 16 the Met. So you had a year, I think, to have what 17 I might call an overview, certainly, and you have seen 18 most of it now work in practice for the time that you 19 have been at the Met. It may not be very long, but long 20 enough for you to have a view of the effect of these 21 policies. 22 Can I summarise, because I think it is important for 23 the public to know what the Met has done, certainly 24 since the Stephen Lawrence report. What you clearly 25 have in place is a race equality scheme, and that is 92 1 a race equality scheme which functions from 2002 to 2 2005. The diversity board which is chaired by the 3 Deputy Commissioner oversees that; am I right? 4 A. That is right. 5 MISS WEEKES: And that has been going since maybe slightly 6 before 2002 but certainly for that length of time. Are 7 you able to say, just as an overview, how well that is 8 operating, the race equality scheme? 9 A. What is difficult for me is to give you a kind of before 10 and after. 11 MISS WEEKES: That is right, that is why I said in a way 12 what is your present overview, because it would not be 13 fair to ask about before because you were not there. 14 A. I think probably one of the key developments which 15 I believe will make a significant difference is the 16 development around the policy clearing house. I have 17 stated my position from the outset that I do think the 18 policy can only take us so far, and we alluded to that 19 just before the break. But nevertheless the mechanisms 20 by which we make policy are a really positive and 21 a really fundamental way of ensuring that people 22 throughout the organisation have to take account of 23 diversity issues. And I think the way in which that 24 process is emerging, and the very, very helpful 25 contribution from people outside the organisation, the 93 1 MPA, CRE, in developing particularly the impact 2 assessment, I think that is where there is a real 3 opportunity for people through the organisation to begin 4 to understand the impact of the things that we say we 5 are going to do. 6 Already that has opened the opportunity for dialogue 7 about those things and has, I think, made -- I detect 8 that there are conversations and discussions that now go 9 on around the formulation of policy that did not happen 10 before. I do not say that we have got it cracked, and 11 there is clearly a long, long way to go, but, you know, 12 as I look at the particular contribution of the race 13 equality scheme, that maybe would not have been put in 14 place otherwise. 15 If you look at other elements around some of the 16 specific duties, particularly in the HR world, I think 17 many of the things that flow and can be tied back to the 18 race equality scheme actually we would have been doing 19 as part of the wider diversity strategy development 20 anyway. So for me that bit around the policy 21 development is fundamental to the way the organisation 22 thinks. 23 If we look at the impact of some of those other 24 elements around recruiting and around retention, again 25 I have a view that fundamental, necessary, important as 94 1 those things are, underneath all that lies the fact that 2 the people to whom we are appealing to join the 3 Metropolitan Police actually are capable of making their 4 own decision based on rational criteria; and that 5 however good the initiatives and the marketing and the 6 rest of it, unless people see an organisation with 7 a culture in which they feel they are going to be 8 welcomed, valued and able to make their contribution, 9 unless they see an organisation that delivers a service 10 in a style and prioritised in a way that the people we 11 work for want it to be, unless they see an organisation 12 that they can be proud of being part of, then however 13 good our leaflets and posters, people are not going to 14 join the organisation. 15 So, again, I think it is an important part of the 16 process coming out of the race equality scheme, but 17 I still think it takes us back to the discussion about 18 how do we create the organisation that people are going 19 to want to join, want to be proud to be part of and want 20 to stay in and progress through. 21 MISS WEEKES: I am going to come back to that perhaps in 22 a moment. Thank you for that. 23 Another important development, of course, is the 24 Race Relations Amendment Act, which the Met has fully 25 implemented in terms of ensuring that their practices 95 1 and policies promote racial equality. I just wanted to 2 add that because, in fairness, it is clear from the 3 documents that we have read that that is the case. 4 A very big commitment is the diversity strategy 5 action plan which the Commissioner has given his 6 personal endorsement of. In fact within it is the 7 Commissioner's personal diversity plan. Just looking at 8 both those Acts, the Race Relations Act, the Amendment 9 Act, or rather your race relations diversity strategy, 10 the diversity strategy action plan, from what you have 11 seen from your position at the moment, is this having an 12 effect of improving the relationship between the white 13 majority officers and the black ethnic minority 14 officers? I appreciate that is a difficult question, 15 but we ought to keep that in mind if we are to suggest 16 recommendations for improvement in the workplace 17 relationships. 18 A. I do not want to be repetitive so please stop me if 19 I do. 20 MISS WEEKES: I do not think I will stop you. I am rather 21 keen to hear what you have to say. 22 A. I really do wonder whether an action plan is capable of 23 delivering that which you ask me about. Where I say 24 I do not want to get repetitive, I again bring the 25 object of the question back to individual encounters, 96 1 about the quality of those encounters, about the quality 2 and style of leadership in the MPS. 3 In a sense, the relationship -- whether it is 4 possible to separate out and identify a relationship 5 between black and minority officers and white officers, 6 again, I do not suppose it is quite that simple. But if 7 we assume for a minute that you can talk about that kind 8 of relationship, then that relationship to me is shaped 9 by the way in which the organisation responds in 10 specific moments. 11 Clearly it is at the very heart of your 12 deliberations, because I think that relationship, in the 13 experience I have of the Metropolitan Police but also my 14 time before, is that it is about the way the 15 organisation responds when an individual is in 16 trouble -- 17 MISS WEEKES: Can I interrupt just for a second because you 18 have moved on to a very important point: how does it 19 respond? One of the things that the Commissioner has 20 said, and indeed Her Majesty's Inspector of 21 Constabulary, Sir Ronnie Flanagan, has said, is that 22 there is still evidence of a fear of an 23 uncomfortableness in dealing with issues like race or 24 gender, and the reality is that most, but not all, most 25 officers will have a white line manager if they happen 97 1 to be from an ethnic minority background. It clearly is 2 not good for a white line manager to feel uncomfortable, 3 whatever the issue is, because there is a job to be 4 done. Neither is it acceptable for the minority officer 5 to feel in any sense that he or she is not being treated 6 fairly. 7 So if you are right and the existence of these two 8 very substantial pieces of policy of themselves do not 9 create that improvement in the working relationship when 10 something goes wrong, what is it that you think will do 11 that? 12 A. It is about addressing the two things, it is fear and it 13 is confidence. Again, I feel certain we are likely to 14 touch on it at some point, but my recent experience in 15 talking to individuals who have ended up involved in 16 long-running employment tribunals and other forms of 17 difficulty with the organisation is that my 18 overwhelming -- I have many overwhelming feelings, but 19 one of the feelings that comes very clearly out of that 20 is that had someone early on in the process said, "Let 21 us sit down, tell me how you feel, tell me why you feel 22 it", developed an adult conversation and an open 23 conversation about the issues, we would never have ended 24 up three years later sat in my offices in some of the 25 appalling circumstances we have. 98 1 So the answer, because you asked me about how you 2 actually do that, I think there is some short-term and 3 there is some long-term. I think the short-term -- 4 well, no, they actually both need to be short-term. 5 There is something about training, so the supervisors, 6 first and second line managers, have some training in 7 mediation, conflict management. 8 It goes back to our approach that you can see in 9 a number of areas, that when we train we tend to -- 10 again, generalisation -- we tend to train around the 11 technical policy aspects of any given area of work. So 12 if you go on a course -- a day's course, a two days' 13 course -- which is about grievance handling, the bulk of 14 that course will be about: this is the policy, these are 15 the forms, these are the steps you must take, these are 16 the time limits. Whereas actually, in my view, we need 17 to take the focus off those things because people can 18 learn those things by reading the policy and looking at 19 the forms, but we need to equip our people with the 20 skills to actually manage some of these difficult people 21 issues. 22 The second bit, and the bit that I think, in my 23 view, holds the key to this -- it does not make it 24 easy -- is the leadership culture in the organisation, 25 because leaders in the organisation have to give the 99 1 people who are confronted with some of these difficult 2 issues -- we have to give our people permission to be 3 creative, to be human, to step away from the constraints 4 of policy and form by defining for them differently the 5 outcomes that we want from them. As I say, my caveat is 6 that these are huge generalisations. 7 But there is a sense in which the outcomes that the 8 organisation has looked for have been about protecting 9 the reputation and the purse of the organisation, and so 10 we ask the question: can we defend this case? As 11 opposed to: has this officer been treated fairly? 12 Organisational activity then moves us down that path 13 depending on the answer to that question. 14 MISS WEEKES: How would you move to put into place the two 15 suggestions which you have given: training and the 16 leadership culture? 17 A. One of my most interesting and significant challenges 18 just at this very moment is that the diversity training 19 school, which is about 40 trainers who have spent the 20 last three years delivering community and race relations 21 training to the whole Met, have just, literally in the 22 last couple of weeks, moved from the human resources 23 directorate into the diversity directorate. We are now 24 very much in active discussion with them, because we are 25 trying to work out what it would look like to develop 100 1 a training package which is around critical encounters. 2 I have alluded to it quite a lot already. But this is 3 about recognising that individual encounters, either of 4 themselves or cumulatively, have a strategic impact on 5 the confidence that our communities have in the 6 Metropolitan Police. 7 So you can identify particular encounters. So stop 8 search would be one, I guess; as a victim of crime would 9 be one; when you telephone the police station. 10 Certainly it would be when you first say to your 11 sergeant, "Sergeant, I am not being treated fairly" or 12 when a new member of staff joins the organisation. 13 These are moments of encounter where the way in which we 14 manage that encounter can have a significant and 15 strategic difference to the organisation. 16 So on that understanding we are trying to develop 17 a kind of training approach that starts with that moment 18 of encounter, and starts by saying, "Have we ever 19 defined the outcomes that we want from some of these 20 encounters?" because my instinctive feeling and my 21 experience will teach me that we do not. So in stop 22 search, do we actually define for our officers what we 23 want them to deliver? If we do not, they end up 24 defining it for themselves. And so, for example, as 25 a young officer my successful outcomes from the stop 101 1 search were to either get an arrest or not to get 2 a complaint, and if I achieved those things then that 3 was success. 4 MISS WEEKES: But keeping it within the realms of dealing 5 with workplace conflicts. 6 A. I think the principle is that if we can define for the 7 people who are going to have to manage those the 8 outcomes that we want, which are about as quickly as 9 possible returning to a position where we get maximum 10 value out of the members of staff involved in their 11 contribution to policing London, as opposed to an 12 outcome which is keep yourself out of trouble and keep 13 the organisation out of trouble, then you start to 14 understand what inputs they need differently. You start 15 to talk about conflict management training, about 16 mediation training, about other mechanisms that allow 17 them to deliver those outcomes. 18 As I say, we are currently working, and we are 19 hoping that within about three months or so we can start 20 delivering as part of the recruit diversity training 21 a package which is about critical encounters and about 22 managing operational and internal encounters. How we 23 then develop the capacity to move that into supervisors 24 I am not sure yet, but I am absolutely certain that it 25 needs doing. 102 1 MISS WEEKES: Is this the first training course of its kind, 2 i.e. getting line managers to address conflict 3 management? 4 A. I doubt it because it is nothing new in the world, but 5 I mean -- 6 MISS WEEKES: I meant in the Met. 7 A. Well, in my knowledge, but bear in mind that is only 12 8 months' knowledge. 9 MISS WEEKES: Yes. 10 You have touched upon recruits. Certainly in the 11 diversity programme that I have referred to, the 12 Metropolitan Police diversity action plan, there is 13 reference to a five-day awareness programme for 14 recruits. Are you aware of this? 15 A. Yes. I have a feeling -- yes, it is three days and then 16 two days. It is not five days all together. Yes, and 17 that programme is now delivered by the trainers who are 18 now part of the Diversity Directorate, which presents me 19 with the wonderful opportunity every five weeks of going 20 and speaking to 300 recruits -- 21 MISS WEEKES: This is at Hendon? 22 A. This is at Hendon, yes. Again, the kind of strategic 23 long-term intention is that the diversity trainers will 24 bring recruit trainers to a point where they are able to 25 deliver that part of the programme themselves. But 103 1 certainly around The Secret Policeman context and some 2 of the pressures at the moment I think there is a sense 3 of vulnerability, and so the specialist diversity 4 trainers are currently delivering that. But, as I say, 5 the plan is to ease them out of that. 6 MISS WEEKES: How long has that been going for? 7 A. I do not know in that specific form, I am sorry. 8 MISS WEEKES: Is it a good programme? 9 A. I have not yet had the opportunity to attend it so I do 10 not know. I am sure it could be better, as they all 11 could be. 12 MISS WEEKES: Well, as you have not had first-hand knowledge 13 I will not ask anything more on that. 14 One of the other things I wanted to ask was the role 15 of the specialist representative groups, of which 16 I think there are 13. They range from the Jewish Police 17 Association, disability, Gay Police Association, Hindu, 18 Sikh, Christian, Italian, the Police Federation. I have 19 not named them all, but those are some of them. Are you 20 happy with the role of these representative groups in 21 the diversity programme? Because of course it is a two 22 way thing, is it not, diversity? 23 A. Yes. 24 MISS WEEKES: Is there room for improvement? 25 A. Yes, I am sure there is. I think just the very fact 104 1 that some of them I have a lot of contact with and I am 2 familiar with the people involved and others I do not 3 probably is an indicator that there is room for 4 improvement in all sorts of ways. 5 Again, we go right back to the beginning and 6 Sir Bill's question about differences between my 7 previous constabulary and the Metropolitan Police. One 8 of the things that I find most refreshing and most 9 energising about being in the Metropolitan Police is the 10 role that these organisations play. I found that to be 11 at the same time immensely challenging myself, thinking 12 of my role in the organisation. And at the same time as 13 that to be incredibly supportive in terms of the agenda 14 that we are trying to deliver. 15 They play for me a very unique role that independent 16 advisory groups do not play, they play a different role, 17 and one that my colleagues in the service, in terms of 18 management processes, do not play. So what they have is 19 a unique knowledge and experience and insight of 20 policing, because they are people who work in the Police 21 Service, and at the same time there is a confidence and 22 expectation in the role which is about challenging the 23 policy process, leadership, personality of the 24 organisation, and I think a combination of those two 25 things puts them in a very unique position. 105 1 MISS WEEKES: Just one other area, and it relates to gender 2 issues. Sir Herman Ouseley dealt with a review for the 3 Metropolitan Police in 2000. It might be useful if we 4 can bring up this quote so you can see it. It is 5 Inquiry document 57, page 13. There will be a little 6 pause before it comes up on your screen. I do not know 7 whether you are familiar with the review that was 8 conducted, led by him? 9 A. Yes. 10 MISS WEEKES: You are, right. If we go down towards the 11 bottom of that page, please. It is in the middle. Can 12 you see the paragraph that begins, "The three strands of 13 investigation"? 14 A. Yes. 15 MISS WEEKES: I am going to start reading: 16 "Sex discrimination is another issue that requires 17 much more investment. There are too few women officers 18 in senior positions, and some very talented women staff 19 have left the organisation during the period of this 20 review because they believe that they have not been 21 sufficiently valued and recognised by their employers. 22 The MPS cannot afford to lose any talented staff and 23 considerable attention should be given to gender 24 prejudice and women's under-representation in senior 25 positions." 106 1 It is important to note the date of that report; it 2 was 2000, and it is some years since. 3 Is the issue of gender representation and equality 4 still an issue within the Met? 5 A. Yes, and I suspect it will be an issue for a long time 6 to come. I think much has been achieved. For example, 7 there is now a deputy assistant commissioner, 8 Carol Howlett, who is Sir John's chief of staff, who has 9 a Met lead for issues relating to gender. There are 10 certainly two women deputy assistant commissioners, off 11 the top of my head, four women commanders. For the 12 first time ever the head of the Special Branch has been 13 a woman. So there is progress and you can track -- 14 although I do not have the figures in front of me, my HR 15 colleagues will bring them -- you can track -- 16 MISS WEEKES: Is that progress equal for black women police 17 staff and black police officers? 18 A. The point I was coming to is that this issue is not 19 restricted to gender; this issue operates across the 20 diversity range. At this moment in time -- I was in 21 conversation with a number of women officers just last 22 week precisely about the experience of being a woman in 23 the Metropolitan Police, and there is some considerable 24 feeling that the MPS has taken its eye away from gender 25 issues because it has been driven so hard by the race 107 1 agenda, and that in a sense because the representative 2 organisations that do exist around women, their 3 perception would be that because they have not been 4 outspoken, because they have not been perhaps as 5 radical, that the organisation has felt able to not pay 6 so much attention to the messages that they are giving. 7 Here in 2004, there remain women in the organisation 8 who feel undervalued, who feel unfairly discriminated 9 against. But I would say that there are people from 10 every part of the spectrum -- there are white men in the 11 organisation who feel undervalued. But I think the MPS 12 does recognise the issue. Certainly the Deputy 13 Commissioner would regard issues around sexual 14 harassment, overt sexism and issues facing our women as 15 being very much on the top of his agenda in terms of 16 where the priorities sit around diversity. 17 There are more women in senior positions, not 18 enough. There are more women coming through the force 19 in terms of progression, but not enough. There are more 20 women joining the organisation. So I think, again, the 21 picture that probably sums up most of my evidence this 22 afternoon is that much has been achieved, and there is 23 a commitment and there is a desire to make things 24 better, but there is also a recognition that we are by 25 no means anywhere near the end of the path. 108 1 MISS WEEKES: How would you wish to see women encouraged to 2 have a louder voice and to be more proactive about their 3 position? 4 A. I think one of the things that I can do, because to an 5 extent I see my role as being about how I can use the 6 power that I have to give others some power in the 7 organisation, is to provide platforms for people to tell 8 their stories and for the issues to be raised through 9 the mechanisms that actually bring some pressure to bear 10 on the Met. 11 So just as an illustrative example, from listening 12 to the experiences of those women officers last week, we 13 have now agreed the federation are going to take the 14 lead on this. 15 MISS WEEKES: Can I just ask, out of interest, who were the 16 women that you spoke to? 17 A. They were women who had had experience as applicants in 18 employment tribunals, if that makes sense. 19 MISS WEEKES: Were they collective across the board? Were 20 they from a representative group? 21 A. No, they were a very small group. It was a discussion 22 that developed from somewhere completely different -- 23 MISS WEEKES: I understand. 24 A. -- so the discussion was not for that purpose. 25 But as a consequence of that, and as a consequence 109 1 of listening to the experiences, I have now given over 2 the -- which I think will be the March or the beginning 3 of April meeting of the diversity forum, to a discussion 4 and a debate and an exploration of issues affecting 5 women in the Metropolitan Police. 6 Of course that forum consists of people from right 7 across the organisation, so representatives from the 8 various parts of the organisation, and also quite 9 a strong representation from externally; so again, MPA, 10 CRE, independent advisers, people like that. What I am 11 hoping is that that provides us with an opportunity then 12 to begin again to be raising the profile around the 13 issues, because the product from that forum feeds into 14 the strategic board, which I have already said is 15 chaired by the Deputy Commissioner, and starts then to 16 identify actions and disseminate actions downwards to 17 the working groups. 18 The other thing that we are doing in restructuring 19 the directorate is for the first time we are putting 20 together a team inside the directorate who will have 21 a specific responsibility for developing approaches 22 around the retention, the progression and treatment of 23 women both inside the organisation and the specific 24 issues that relate to delivering policing services to 25 over half the population. So there will be a team who 110 1 have a very clear mandate around developing those 2 responses. 3 MISS WEEKES: Perhaps the last point. You are right in 4 terms of the material we have in front of us that a good 5 number of women are joining the police force, but 6 retention and promotion is perhaps a difficulty. My 7 recent reading of the 2003 statistics for the whole of 8 police officers in England and Wales indicates that 9 63 per cent of women have police civilian staff roles. 10 Why is that? 11 A. Why is it? 12 MISS WEEKES: Why are they not joining the ranks of 13 promotion up to superintendents and beyond? 14 A. Sorry, 63 per cent are constables? 15 MISS WEEKES: Are police staff. 63 per cent of the civilian 16 staff are women, as opposed to -- 17 A. So the question is why are they not joining as police 18 officers? 19 MISS WEEKES: Yes. Perhaps there is not any particular 20 reason; perhaps it is personal choice. 21 A. Well, I suspect there is a whole load of complexity that 22 starts with the way that people bring up children, and 23 the whole issue about expectations and about gender 24 stereotyping from the very beginning of life through the 25 education system, through opportunity, through, I guess, 111 1 as seen probably from outside, still the very kind of 2 male dominated macho culture of the Police Service, 3 which may well -- 4 MISS WEEKES: Are there good conditions and provisions for 5 women who have children to be sergeants and otherwise? 6 A. There absolutely are, yes. I think, again, my answer 7 comes back to, yes, I think we have as good a range, as 8 comprehensive a range of policies around career breaks, 9 around part-time, all those things. We have the range 10 of policy that will stand scrutiny against anyone. 11 But we come back to the kind of more difficult point 12 about how do we move the culture forward so that women 13 feel that they are valued, women are given the 14 opportunities to progress through the organisation, and 15 that women feel that the organisation wants them to 16 progress through. I am not suggesting that the opposite 17 of those things is the case at the moment, but I think 18 there are clearly still themes within the organisational 19 culture that are putting women off, or are preventing 20 women. Because it may not be about their willingness, 21 it might be about the willingness of the organisation to 22 push them through. 23 MISS WEEKES: Well, I hope we will hear from some women at 24 some point in the Inquiry. 25 A. I am sure you will. 112 1 MISS WEEKES: Thank you very much. 2 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you. Can I invite my colleague 3 Sir Anthony Burden to put one or two questions. 4 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN 5 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Mr Allen, my major concern is helping 6 you to make it happen, because it looks as though the 7 right person is in the job because Her Majesty's 8 Inspector of Constabulary says so in his report about to 9 be published. Although the rank of the person in charge 10 has been reduced from Deputy Assistant Commissioner to 11 Commander: 12 "... the officer appointed has the requisite skills 13 and abilities to perform this demanding role". 14 That congratulates you, if you did not know it, for 15 the work you are doing. 16 I guess coming into the Met many would have said, 17 "Well, what does he know about policing London, coming 18 from a small provincial force like Avon and Somerset?" 19 Let us just put it on record: you were a Divisional 20 Commander in Bristol, which is a very diverse community, 21 a very busy city, dealing with a lot of difficult 22 problems. 23 A. I wish that were true. I was a Superintendent 24 Operations in Bristol, sir. I had the privilege of 25 being Divisional Commander down at Bath. 113 1 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Well, then you were even busier in 2 Bristol as the guy in charge of operations. 3 Let us just put the problem in terms of perspective 4 that the Metropolitan Police is dealing with here. 5 Internally we have already heard that there is conflict. 6 We have got minority ethnic officers and staff who have 7 lost confidence and trust in the organisation to deal 8 effectively with issues such as complaints and staffing 9 issues, human resource issues. We have got their white 10 colleagues, it would appear, who lack the confidence to 11 be able to exercise supervision among minority ethnic 12 officers, and that has been said. In fact, you make 13 a similar reference in your submission but it has been 14 said more strongly by the Commissioner and one of your 15 colleagues, to such an extent that as opposed to dealing 16 with minor issues they are allowed to bubble over and 17 the police authority of the Metropolitan Police refers 18 to the organisation as a "pressure cooker", allowing 19 things just to simmer along until it finally blows. 20 That is internally. 21 Externally, I guess I would not be wrong -- please 22 correct me if I am wrong -- that if you are young, black 23 and male you stand far more chance of being stopped in 24 a stop search than if you are white. So looking at the 25 picture, you have been given a tremendous task to 114 1 undertake, and that is why I come back to the point 2 I made earlier, and that is assisting you to make it 3 happen. 4 How do we as a panel make recommendations that build 5 some strength in around you to get to that sort of 6 critical mass situation where it moves automatically and 7 does not need all the time this inertia of pushing the 8 agenda? 9 A. The simple answer for me, sir, is more resource around 10 leadership development. I, as part of my 11 responsibilities in the directorate, own the 12 Commissioner's leadership programme, which is a week 13 where the content is very much around mission, vision 14 and values, valuing people; some of those kind of 15 philosophical themes where we do have the opportunity to 16 start talking to people about the fundamental 17 relationship between diversity and operational success 18 and start to put things in that context. 19 By the end of that week people are thinking 20 differently, people are enthused, people are excited 21 about the prospect of going back to work. I caution 22 them when I close the course how they are going to feel 23 by 10 o'clock on Monday morning. The sense is very 24 often -- the analogy is having a bath of cold water and 25 trying to heat it up by pouring mugfuls of hot water 115 1 into it. The only way that you end up kind of heating 2 the cold water is by pouring enough hot water in as 3 quickly as you can; quickly enough. My sense with 4 leadership development, we run something like five or 5 six courses during the year, with about 50 or 60 people 6 on them. That is not sufficient to begin to create that 7 critical mass. 8 My view is that I would like to see some 9 recommendations around a fairly radically different 10 approach to leadership development in the MPS, not to 11 rely on developments that are going on nationally 12 because I am not sure whether they will deliver what the 13 Met needs; that is partly about capacity. 14 We have devoted for the last three years 40 or 50 15 people to delivering community and race relations 16 training around the organisation. I think if we could 17 take that level of resource, 40 or 50 people -- and it 18 probably would not even need that -- and create a centre 19 of excellence, an academy, call it what you like, which 20 from the moment someone says, or the moment someone 21 picks up an application form to be a sergeant that we 22 pick that person up as an organisation and we start to 23 shape them. 24 That is not about going on a course once every year, 25 it is about a continual process of development, 116 1 a continual process of enriching their skills, enriching 2 their people skills, basing it on some academically 3 credible evidence so that their activity is evidence 4 based. And it is also about the other bit of it. The 5 other bit has to be about not just giving the people 6 those things but demanding that if they want the 7 privilege of leadership in this fantastic organisation 8 that they have to consistently demonstrate that they are 9 leading in the way that we demand they lead, and that is 10 about value-driven leadership. 11 And so there is a means by which people have to 12 continually provide the evidence of the way in which 13 they are leading. We do ask the people they lead how 14 they are leading and what the impact is of that. We do 15 ask communities what they think of their local sector 16 sergeant, and if people are not delivering then they 17 have to lose their certificate, or whatever it is, and 18 we have to be honest with people. 19 I am sure I do not need to say it, but, you know, 20 people will behave in the organisation in the way 21 that -- people want to be valued so they will behave in 22 a way that attracts value from those who manage and lead 23 them. Those who manage and lead think we are exactly 24 what the Met needs and so we will promote people behind 25 us who do things the way that we do things. And so we 117 1 need to develop leadership approaches and leadership 2 development in a way that means those things do not 3 happen and in a way that develops leaders who we would 4 want our people to emulate and people who are role 5 models, and I do not think the current arrangements 6 deliver that. 7 Current arrangements deliver superb operational 8 leadership. It is one of the things that impresses me 9 beyond anything about making the move up here; the 10 ability to manage crisis, the ability to operate 11 a complex external environment is quite remarkable. But 12 the other bit of it is about the organisational 13 behaviour where I think we need to focus, and, as I say, 14 current processes and systems will not deliver what we 15 need. I think it is a big commitment, it is a big ask 16 in terms of investment, but I think, if we are going to 17 change the organisation, then I think we have to 18 confront that. 19 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Is that message that sets the values 20 for the organisation coming often enough and 21 consistently enough from the senior management team? 22 A. One of the other dynamics, as a consequence of the size 23 of the Met, it is almost impossible to talk of the Met 24 as one homogenous organisation where if you say that 25 applies in Bromley it also applies somewhere up the 118 1 other end. I think one of the most obvious things about 2 the Commissioner is that he is a man who speaks 3 frequently and loudly and unrepentantly about the values 4 that he sees underpinning policing, and the Deputy 5 Commissioner likewise, and I think those values are 6 there. But it is such a long way from the 7 Commissioner's office down to a parade room in Croydon 8 that you have to have the confidence in what sits in 9 between to be transmitting that and explaining it and 10 understanding it as it passes down. 11 To put it in a diversity context, you start at the 12 top of the organisation talking about the need to 13 deliver all your policing service in a way that 14 recognises the needs, the diversity, the aspirations and 15 the vulnerabilities of the communities you work in, and 16 by the time it arrives in a classroom at a training 17 school, it can be: diversity is about do not say these 18 four words, which is what we saw on The Secret 19 Policeman. And so it is that transmission mechanism -- 20 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: So it becomes defensive: how to protect 21 yourself, rather than a positive message? 22 A. We go back to threat not opportunity, yes. 23 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: I would like more time to explore that 24 with you but we have not got it. But I would welcome, 25 Chairman, if there is an opportunity from you to submit 119 1 something, Mr Allen, that suggests where you feel 2 blockages are and where we need to recommend that 3 attention needs to be paid within the organisation, to 4 make sure that message is delivered from the 5 Commissioner's office onto the streets; I know you need 6 to think about that but I certainly would welcome that 7 and I am sure my colleagues would. 8 Can I go on, then, and say, how do we take the heat 9 out of all this so that people within the organisation 10 do not feel threatened, they do not feel threatened to 11 discuss issues, and it is a positive culture where they 12 try and resolve conflict and do not get into this 13 defensive mode all the time that appears to be the 14 situation? Do you bang heads together or ... ? 15 A. No. Again, it is about the people who are there 16 leading; it is about the tone they set, about the 17 language they use, about the way that they are seen to 18 treat people. And so what we might be pointing to here 19 is an early piece of work about sergeants, first level 20 civil staff. 21 What I cannot see my way through is what policy 22 approach, or what structural change, or what initiatives 23 or posters or leaflets are going to deliver that. 24 I think this Inquiry actually has the potential to be 25 a significant part of that process, because I think 120 1 there is a huge amount of optimism around this process 2 reflected back to me from the people I speak to, that 3 here is a chance for people to share their experience 4 with you, so this is how I see the Met, this is what it 5 has been like for me. And certainly having heard some 6 of the experiences that I have heard over the last two 7 or three months, there are some moving and powerful 8 accounts of what it is like to be in the 9 Metropolitan Police that I am sure will be put your way. 10 There are some moving and powerful accounts that are 11 entirely positive as well, of course. And so I think 12 people's view is that this is an opportunity for us as 13 an organisation to be open, to be frank with each other, 14 and to arrive at some kind of consensus about what the 15 way forward might look like. There are one or two signs 16 in the organisation that that may happen. 17 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Can I just take you back so my 18 understanding is correct. When you mentioned posters, 19 leaflet, et cetera, are you suggesting that maybe not 20 right across the Metropolitan Police but in some places 21 the message has not got beyond that? 22 A. My observation over the last six months since I came 23 into this role -- and I obviously get to a lot of 24 conferences, go to various organisations and talk to 25 a lot of diversity people -- my sense is that there is 121 1 a tendency to believe that you deliver diversity through 2 initiative and policy, that that is actually what the 3 agenda is about and that is where it stops. You know, 4 you talk to people about what they have achieved around 5 diversity, and what they talk about is how many schemes 6 they have got and how many of this form and the other 7 form, without beginning to get into that business of 8 quality encounters and people's confidence and that kind 9 of stuff. 10 I am sure there are places in the MPS where maybe 11 that is as far as it got, and without wishing to sound 12 remotely defensive, there are organisations out there 13 who are held up as best practice around diversity, where 14 my untutored view to be that they have got no further 15 than that at an organisational understanding level. 16 I think my point was, really, that this is more 17 complex and more fundamental and more about individual 18 human relationships and understanding outcomes 19 differently than can be addressed by having an 20 initiative or a marketing campaign, and we need to think 21 beyond those things. 22 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Do you think there is sufficient buy-in 23 from grass roots level and from representative 24 organisations within the Metropolitan Police when 25 policies are developed that actually means that there is 122 1 a high level of common sense and a real chance that 2 those policies are going to succeed, or is it top-down 3 or expert-driven? 4 A. My general impression, again, would be that it is hugely 5 variable, and it is hugely variable, I guess, also in 6 terms of the input from different associations. So that 7 you could, for example, see the contribution of the BPA 8 across a whole range of policy development and a whole 9 range of policy processes, but maybe with some of the 10 other staff associations that would not be so visible, 11 which is why, I think, I personally -- I know that 12 people in the associations and I know that the 13 organisation, as represented in the Commissioner and the 14 Deputy, regard the creation of the Samurai Network as 15 being a hugely significant thing because that does, if 16 you like, allow a progression in terms of people's 17 input. 18 Again, comparison inside the Met and outside the 19 Met, my view is that staff associations are probably 20 embedded in decision-making processes in a way here that 21 would not be so visible elsewhere. 22 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Can I finally just deal with 23 a specific, if I may, and that is a concern raised by 24 Sir Ronnie Flanagan in his HMI report during a recent 25 inspection at Hendon. He comments on wastage rates at 123 1 Hendon amongst recruits as being high: 11.79 per cent 2 overall. But just as, if not more, worrying, with 3 minority ethnic recruits the wastage rate is 4 13.17 per cent, which, I think, coming from your world 5 and mine, in provincial recruitment centre terms, is 6 astronomically high. 7 I suppose I should firstly ask you, before asking 8 your opinion, whether in relation to the recruitment of 9 minority ethnic officers and their training at Hendon, 10 whether you have had any role or any understanding or 11 any chance to have a look at -- 12 A. No, that sits within the HR structure. We are just 13 beginning to get into the beginning of that. The DOIT 14 team are engaged in some joint work with the training 15 estate to look at how we might provide different levels 16 of support. 17 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Can I deal with it in general terms, 18 then, because obviously the specific would be unfair to 19 ask you. 20 Being in charge of your directorate, have you become 21 aware of anything which would suggest to you that the 22 wastage rate amongst recruits in general, and minority 23 ethnic recruits specifically, is anything to do with the 24 way they have been treated, or anything to do with the 25 culture either at Hendon or the culture of the 124 1 organisation? 2 A. The answer is yes. Again, my caveat is that no one who 3 has had a positive experience at Hendon makes an 4 appointment to come and see me to tell me about it, and 5 therefore in terms of the numbers and proportions and 6 the generality of the experience, it would be unfair of 7 me to comment. 8 But certainly I have had conversations with a number 9 of people who went through Hendon five years ago and 10 some who have been through Hendon more recently than 11 that, and their experiences have been difficult to hear 12 because, undoubtedly, they have been subject to less 13 favourable treatment than others; they have had to put 14 up with the kind of insidious barroom comment. 15 One issue is that up until fairly recently I do not 16 think that as an organisation we have recognised the 17 degree of significant pressure that members of some 18 communities come under from their family and friends 19 when they take a decision to join the Police Service. 20 We take them into the residential environment at Hendon, 21 or any other training school, and -- all the pressure 22 about initial training is about conforming, is it not? 23 It is about bringing people to a common point, if you 24 like. And we have not recognised the particular 25 pressures that some of our officers have been under, and 125 1 we have not therefore supported them; we have not been 2 sensitive to those particular issues. And it is no 3 wonder that they find -- you know, if they are under 4 pressure from outside for joining the police and then 5 they join the service and they feel under pressure from 6 a predominant culture which does not appear to welcome 7 their presence inside the service, then it is no wonder 8 that they walk away. 9 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: That atmosphere, that culture which 10 does not welcome, as you say, and what has been said to 11 you, is the basis of the problem either around sexist, 12 racist behaviour or just peer bullying? 13 A. I will try and be careful, sir, that I think of specific 14 examples before I answer your question. 15 Certainly racism and certainly bullying. But, as 16 I say, there is a caveat here that is that Commander 17 Steve Allen is not sitting here telling you what the 18 experience of everyone who goes through Hendon is, 19 because clearly I cannot. And I think, in a sense, the 20 report, which I believe you will have sight of, that 21 Assistant Commissioner Ghaffur has done, will allow a 22 closer insight into the sort of generalities. 23 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: There is an element in Mr Ghaffur's 24 report dealing with it? 25 A. I understand that recruitment was part of that. 126 1 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: You understand the importance of this, 2 you quite obviously do. I mean, this is the gateway 3 into the Metropolitan Police and here a culture is 4 built. The cornerstones of a culture is actually 5 developed, and if that is bad culture then it is merely 6 perpetuating the problem. 7 A. Absolutely, which is why, without wishing to sound 8 egotistical in any way, shape or form, why I think the 9 opportunity that I now have to speak to recruits when 10 they first join the organisation is a fundamentally 11 important one, because it gives me the opportunity -- 12 I go back to the diversity is threat or opportunity 13 discourse -- it gives me an opportunity right from the 14 outset to present a paradigm around diversity which 15 might begin to move us forward. 16 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you, you have been very frank 17 with me. Can I ask you, please, where the issues around 18 Hendon, where the responsibility lies? Where is that 19 being pursued so that we can follow it up? 20 A. I think it is being very actively and proactively 21 pursued in a number of places; I guess primarily within 22 HR, where it properly sits. 23 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you very much indeed. 24 A. Again, if I could just say that, if I have left any room 25 for doubt about the determination of the Metropolitan 127 1 Police both to recognise the issue and already some time 2 ago to have begun addressing it in a very forthright and 3 robust way, then I have failed in the completeness of my 4 evidence. 5 SIR ANTHONY BURDEN: Thank you very much. 6 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Commander Allen, that concludes the 7 series of questions that my colleagues and I wanted to 8 put to you. But you will recall that in my opening 9 statement I said that I would offer you the opportunity 10 for a brief closing comment, if you so wish. Should you 11 wish to do so, this is your moment. 12 A. Sir, it feels like I have been talking for an awful long 13 time. 14 For me the agenda is, I think, fairly 15 straightforward in terms of defining it, not in terms of 16 delivering it, and anything that this Inquiry can do 17 that assists us as an organisation in this regard would 18 be hugely welcomed by all of us, I am sure. 19 The key elements for us moving forward have to be 20 the whole discussion around leadership, and 21 fundamentally about joining the diversity agenda with 22 the performance agenda, and, again, anything that the 23 Inquiry can do around that so that not only do we 24 deliver good street crime results week on week on week 25 but that we deliver more confident, more trusting and 128 1 more capability communities year on year. 2 Thank you very much for your time and patience. 3 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Thank you very much. I want to make 4 a public point. First of all, Sir Anthony had indicated 5 that the Inquiry would welcome any supplementary 6 contribution which you are able to offer, and via the 7 secretariat we will seek to follow that through. 8 That said, the formal comments that I want to make 9 is just to indicate to you that, as with all our 10 witnesses, it may be that once we have heard other 11 witnesses that we may want to ask you a few more 12 questions, either by writing to you or asking you to 13 come back to one of our hearings. If we find a heed to 14 do that, we will try and do so as best we can in order 15 to minimise any inconvenience that that might cause to 16 you. 17 But for the moment all that I have to say further is 18 just on behalf of my colleagues and myself to thank you 19 for your contribution to this Inquiry so far. Thank 20 you. 21 A. Thank you. 22 SIR WILLIAM MORRIS: Can I indicate to members of the public 23 that it is my intention now to adjourn this Inquiry 24 until 10.30 on Monday, 23rd February. 25 Can I ask you just to remain seated whilst Commander 129 1 Allen, as a witness, and my colleagues and myself leave 2 the room. Thank you very much. 3 (4.05 pm) 4 (The Inquiry adjourned until 10.30 am on 5 Monday, 23rd February 2004) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 SIR ALISTAIR GRAHAM (called) ..................... 2 4 MR IAN BYNOE (called) ............................ 2 5 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS .................. 5 6 Questions by MISS WEEKES ......................... 27 7 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN .................. 50 8 MR STEVE ALLEN (called) .......................... 63 9 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS .................. 67 10 Questions by MISS WEEKES ......................... 93 11 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN .................. 114 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131